# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread #2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531 "2020-06-23T20:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 72
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1424 "2021-04-20T18:35:52Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > > [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > > > Fairfax County, VA is dropping 400 convictions after one of their former cops is accused of stealing drugs from the police property room, planting drugs on innocent people and stopping motorists without legal basis. > > Make him pay. > > He personally needs to be presented with a bill for all of the court time and court costs, the DAs’ time, the public defenders’ time, private defense attorney’s bills, bail bond fees, lost wages for any work that anyone missed defending themselves, additional lost wages for any time spent incarcerated, all jail/prison costs, (also any fines that any one of his victims may have incurred). And anything else I haven’t thought of off the top of my head. > > Right now, his victims and the people of the commonwealth of Virginia are paying the financial costs of his crap. If he had to pay for it himself, if other cops saw he had to pay for it himself (if they, too were personally fined along with him for their part in this), I believe some of them might think twice. I agree with this post. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1425 "2021-04-20T18:44:12Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > It’s trivially easy to devise a narrative which creates the opposite impression. We just need to pick different examples. You’re correct in that anecdotes are a poor way to build any sort of constructive narrative – if that narrative were being built from scratch. But the alternate narrative you build leaves out roughly 400 years of context. When LEOs kill an unarmed white person, it doesn’t connect with a history of reckless disregard of white people’s rights by LEOs, because that history doesn’t exist. They’re weird, isolated incidents. When LEOs kill an unarmed Black person, it connects with a long, well-documented history of reckless disregard of Black people’s rights by LEOs. They’re anything but isolated incidents. That’s why … > [@WalterBishop](#): > > the media focuses very strongly on cases where unarmed black men are killed by cops and dangerous white men are taken in without incident, but barely spends any time covering cases where unarmed white men are killed by cops and dangerous black men are taken in without incident. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1426 "2021-04-20T20:01:10Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > Meanwhile, an unarmed white man gets shot dead in a hotel corridor by a cop wielding a gun with **“You’re Fucked”** written on it, and not only does the cop get away with it, he gets to retire on a full pension (this is the [Daniel Shaver](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-officer-who-fatally-shot-sobbing-man-temporarily-rehired-apply-n1028981) case I referenced earlier.) [This story did get covered in this thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11924) (its precursor) and did get several comments, so shove that shit right back up where it belongs. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1427 "2021-04-20T20:11:24Z")
You make a lot of good points, and you make them well. But – aside from agreeing with @Akaj 's response – I’d add … I made reference in post 1338 above to the 245 year narrative that simply cannot be ignored in trying to understand so many elements of where we are today. I agree that the perception tide _could_ be turned if the issue were spun in the other direction (ie, more like Fox does), but I don’t agree that it _should_ be. That’s because of studies like this one: > **[Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal? A Field Experiment...](https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873)** > > Founded in 1920, the NBER is a private, non-profit, non-partisan organization dedicated to conducting economic research and to disseminating research findings among academics, public policy makers, and business professionals. This is pretty clean. Not a crap-ton of confounding variables at play here. A basic Rorschach Test: say what you see. I’d like to see it repeated. I’d like to see it used in Law Enforcement as a screening tool. I’d like no end of tests be designed and implemented with the goal of identifying racists among the ranks. I’d imagine that on the ‘active shooter’ training courses, it wouldn’t be too hard to determine whether Bob shoots the unarmed black guy at 3X the rate that he, or others, shoot the unarmed white guy. If they can be identified, monitored, counseled, and managed in a way that they can be good and decent, LEOs, free from a harmful level of prejudice, then they should be. But if tests show that they harbor deep-seated, inviolable, immutable – even if totally unconscious – racist beliefs, then ~~maybe~~ they shouldn’t be in the profession At All. The point is: quality should be closer to being _designed in,_ not _tested out._ Ditto racism in our State-sponsored institutions – particularly law enforcement. And taking Fox News’s approach (ie, American Exceptionalism) never makes anything better, and there’s a lot to make better in this country. The cops can’t change 245 years of history and that isn’t their job. But we don’t need even one racist cop having power over the lives of other people – particularly over vulnerable people. Cops really are sui generis because of their potential lethality, just as the criminal justice system in which they work is sui generis because of its ability to deprive people of their liberty. They need to be held to a higher standard because of that. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1428 "2021-04-20T22:16:52Z")
Cops have trouble obeying the laws they punish others for not obeying. [https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/im-also-a-police-officer-arizona-deputy-uses-racial-slur-pleads-for-release-after-being-pulled-over-for-dui/ar-BB1fREi6?li=BBnb7Kz](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/im-also-a-police-officer-arizona-deputy-uses-racial-slur-pleads-for-release-after-being-pulled-over-for-dui/ar-BB1fREi6?li=BBnb7Kz) ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2021, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1429 "2021-04-20T23:10:15Z")
Back when I was a little younger and honkier, I had a conversation in which I expressed shock over a cop who had been busted planting either flour or something that wasn’t actually cocaine in suspects’ cars. Bad enough that a dirty cop tried to frame innocent drivers, but even worse knowing that the ‘evidence’ was never tested in a crime lab until someone finally got wise and demanded that it be tested. Her response was, “Pfff, happens all the time.” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2021, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1430 "2021-04-21T00:57:41Z")
While the Chauvin verdict was being read, Columbus, OH police showed up to a report of a disturbance and shot a 16-year-old girl to death. According to reports, the girl they shot was the one who had called police for help. Guess what color her skin was. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2021, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1431 "2021-04-21T00:59:12Z")
Here’s the story. > **[Bodycam footage shows fatal police shooting of 16-year-old girl in southeast...](https://www.10tv.com/article/news/local/15-year-old-girl-shot-and-killed-by-police-officer-in-southeast-columbus/530-c77bb47e-97d1-47b5-8ed8-099c105a0f20)** > > Ma'Khia Bryant was shot and killed by Columbus police officer Nicholas Reardon on Tuesday. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2021, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1432 "2021-04-21T02:27:42Z")
> **[White Woman 'Intentionally' Hit 3 Black Teens With Car](https://www.newsweek.com/white-woman-intentionally-hit-3-black-teens-car-not-thought-hate-crime-1585141)** > > Daina Renee Forrest had been circling the block in her car, waving a knife out the window and threatening the lives of the young Black kids despite later telling investigators she doesn't believe "it was a race hate crime, no." Translation: We don’t want her to spend that much time in prison, God-Fearing white girl and all. We know that waving a knife was more than enough for cops to killl a 16 yr old black girl in Ohio. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2021, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1433 "2021-04-21T03:43:58Z")
And three cops stood over the spot where she was shot, shouting “Blue lives matter.” > **[Ma'Khia Bryant: 3 White officers shout Blue Lives Matter at shooting scene...](https://meaww.com/makhia-makiyah-bryant-shooting-ohio-black-teen-white-cops-shout-blue-lives-matter-family-cry-angry)** > > 'I hate to think this, y’all bring me down. Is this in retaliation for the Chauvin conviction?' wondered a user ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2021, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1434 "2021-04-21T07:17:11Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > And three cops stood over the spot where she was shot, shouting “Blue lives matter.” > [Ma'Khia Bryant: 3 White officers shout Blue Lives Matter at shooting scene after killer cop stands over corpse | MEAWW](https://meaww.com/makhia-makiyah-bryant-shooting-ohio-black-teen-white-cops-shout-blue-lives-matter-family-cry-angry) Damn. Just damn. 😥 ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2021, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1435 "2021-04-21T11:38:23Z")
The ASU cop is to be celebrated. If there were more like him, we probably wouldn’t have needed this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2021, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1436 "2021-04-21T12:56:32Z")
Aye; that was good policing IMO. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2021, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1437 "2021-04-21T14:07:24Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > We know that waving a knife was more than enough for cops to killl a 16 yr old black girl in Ohio. Well, now having watched the video, she wasn’t just waving a knife, she was literally at that moment trying to kill someone with it. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2021, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1438 "2021-04-21T15:14:39Z")
Definitely an altercation going on when the cop arrived. I didn’t get audio (due to the computer I was watching it on). I’ll be interested to see what the investigation reveals. The “Blue Lives Matter” Trio, OTOH, need to be fired. Now. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2021, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1439 "2021-04-21T16:29:15Z")
> Loveland police officer Austin Hopp approached Karen Garner on June 26 after employees at a Walmart called to report that Garner tried to leave the store without paying for a T-shirt, a soda, a candy bar and wipes. > > The employees made Garner return to the store and leave the items but called police to report the incident. Hopp found Garner walking along a road nearby. > > Garner has dementia and sensory aphasia, which impairs her ability to communicate and understand, according to a federal civil rights lawsuit filed last week about the incident. > **[DA launches investigation of Loveland police’s forceful arrest of 73-year-old...](https://www.denverpost.com/2021/04/19/loveland-police-arrest-dementia-investigation/)** > > Outside law enforcement and prosecutors will investigate whether a Loveland police officer should face criminal charges for forcing a 73-year-old woman to the ground and allegedly fracturing her ar… [https://abc7chicago.com/karen-garner-video-woman-with-dementia-arrest-body-cam-73-year-old-loveland-police-department/10523073/](https://abc7chicago.com/karen-garner-video-woman-with-dementia-arrest-body-cam-73-year-old-loveland-police-department/10523073/) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2021, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1441 "2021-04-21T17:18:46Z")
Really. I mean, what could they have been thinking. Damn. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2021, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1442 "2021-04-21T17:29:13Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, now having watched the video, she wasn’t just waving a knife, she was literally at that moment trying to kill someone with it. I just watched the video as well. Here’s what I saw: The cop stepped back the moment the girl went down on the grass in front of him. We hear him shouting. He backs up some more drawing a gun as the girl with the knife goes after the second woman in the pink jumpsuit standing by the car. Then he shoots the girl with the knife. My thoughts are that at no point is the violence directed at him but he continues to back up. He has opportunity to step in and physically restrain the attacker. Instead he uses that time to draw his weapon. There are at least two other cops on the scene who would immediately assist him if he acted to restrain the attacker. Instead, because a gun is drawn they step back for safety and at least one other cop draws his gun as well. Now, perhaps it’s down to training that the cops immediately step back and draw their weapons in such situations. That seems instinctively wrong to me. Especially with so many bystanders so close by. ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2021, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1443 "2021-04-21T17:44:05Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I just watched the video as well. I’ve tried going back in this thread, but I can’t seem to find the link to this video you all are talking about here. Could you link to it again please? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2021, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1444 "2021-04-21T17:45:28Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > My thoughts are that at no point is the violence directed at him but he continues to back up. He has opportunity to step in and physically restrain the attacker. Instead he uses that time to draw his weapon. I don’t like how he handled it, either. I don’t think, however, that he committed any crime you could possibly convict him of. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Now, perhaps it’s down to training that the cops immediately step back and draw their weapons in such situations. That seems instinctively wrong to me. I mean, he’s not very far at all from shooting the other girl by accident, for one thing. It seems to me an opportunity existed here to stop the attack without killing her. But as you allude to, that is not how cops are trained anymore. They are trained to see the public as the enemy and to be ready to kill them at a moment’s notice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=71) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=73)