# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread #2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531 "2020-06-23T20:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/142 "2020-08-22T03:07:52Z")
Kansas City: > **[Kansas City police officer indicted on felony assault charge](https://apnews.com/2fc4cb62eb753619386c5c0a12f80e08)** > > LIBERTY, Mo. (AP) — A Kansas City police sergeant has been indicted on a felony charge of third-degree assault after he allegedly kneed a 15-year-old boy on his neck and head and forced his head into the pavement while the teenager repeatedly said “I... ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/143 "2020-08-22T03:09:05Z")
And in a shocker, the Pentagon determines that shit the Pentagon did is not illegal: > **[Pentagon: Use of surveillance planes in protests was legal](https://apnews.com/4e3b87f50be81b25b3060eff7c61a253)** > > WASHINGTON (AP) — The use of National Guard reconnaissance planes in four U.S. cities to monitor the widespread protests earlier this year didn't violate rules against the military collecting intelligence on Americans, a Pentagon report has... ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/144 "2020-08-22T06:05:55Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > And in a shocker, the Pentagon determines that shit the Pentagon did is not illegal Shortly after I retired from the Navy, I wrote to my congresscritter about an ongoing fraud on the US military bases in Japan and I even provided evidence of that fraud. Do you want to take a wild guess who the congressional committee responsible for oversight appointed to determine the validity of my accusation? Oh, yes. They selected the very people I accused of committing the fraud. So, yeah. Twenty years on and the more things change, the more they stay the same. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/145 "2020-08-22T20:53:50Z")
[# Georgia officer fired after video shows him using stun gun on woman during arrest](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/georgia-officer-fired-after-video-shows-him-using-stun-gun-on-woman-during-arrest/ar-BB18grJr?li=BBnb7Kz) I cannot see the video. But I gotta say, from the description, it sounds like the officer’s actions were reasonable and correct. If you can see the video, do the actions of officer match the description in the article? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/146 "2020-08-22T23:26:10Z")
911 is called because woman is suicidal; law enforcement arrives and helps her fulfill her wishes by shooting her–resulting in her death. > **[DCI identifies Fort Dodge woman killed, deputy involved in her shooting](https://www.kcci.com/article/dci-identifies-fort-dodge-woman-killed-deputy-involved-in-her-shooting/33553838)** > > Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation has identified the woman killed and the officer who shot her. While it’s certainly possible law enforcement didn’t have alternatives, I wish they were better trained to deal with the mentally ill. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/147 "2020-08-22T23:29:17Z")
So nothing at all about the written description of the event strikes you as unreasonable? 🤨 ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/148 "2020-08-23T00:50:55Z")
Unless I am missing something, no. Cop called and he arrives. He sees video of suspect, and was directed to the house when suspect is alleged to reside. He goes to said house, visually identifies a suspect. Suspect is verbally combative. Officer makes several attempts to calm suspect down before informing her she was under arrest. Then suspect becomes physically combative. > “After **several** warnings, the officer told Smith that she was under arrest. Smith resisted a lawful command and refused to be placed in handcuffs. _After refusing to be placed in handcuffs_, **she was warned that she would be tased**. After she resisted the officer’s commands she was tased and placed in handcuffs,” the press release states. “After she was placed in handcuffs she kicked the officer and continued to be uncooperative.” The article implies, but does not directly state, that Smith is the suspect identified in the video. > When Oxford went to the home of the suspects, he recognized a person on the porch as one of those in the surveillance video, according to the release. Smith began yelling at Oxford, and the officer yelled back and told her that she could be arrested if she did not let him do his job. Is any of that contradicted by the video? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/149 "2020-08-23T00:55:14Z")
Tasing should only be used to deal with a threatening subject, never to enforce compliance. > **[Court to Cops: Stop Tasing People into Compliance](https://www.wired.com/2010/01/court-dials-back-taser-use-cops-cant-zap-to-force-behavior/)** > > The use of Tasers has become increasingly controversial over the last year, following high-profile cases such as the Tasering of a 10-year-old girl who had refused to take a shower and video of a 72-year-old great-grandmother who was Tasered... > [@](#): > > In particular, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals [ruled that Tasers can’t be used](http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2009/12/28/08-55622.pdf) simply to force a non-violent person to bend to an officer’s will. ETA: That’s not the only problematic part of that encounter. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/150 "2020-08-23T01:05:38Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Unless I am missing something, no. > > Cop called and he arrives. He sees video of suspect, and was directed to the house when suspect is alleged to reside. He goes to said house, visually identifies a suspect. Suspect is verbally combative. Officer makes several attempts to calm suspect down before informing her she was under arrest. Then suspect becomes physically combative. > > > “After **several** warnings, the officer told Smith that she was under arrest. Smith resisted a lawful command and refused to be placed in handcuffs. _After refusing to be placed in handcuffs_, **she was warned that she would be tased**. After she resisted the officer’s commands she was tased and placed in handcuffs,” the press release states. “After she was placed in handcuffs she kicked the officer and continued to be uncooperative.” > > The article implies, but does not directly state, that Smith is the suspect identified in the video. > > > When Oxford went to the home of the suspects, he recognized a person on the porch as one of those in the surveillance video, according to the release. Smith began yelling at Oxford, and the officer yelled back and told her that she could be arrested if she did not let him do his job. > > Is any of that contradicted by the video? I didn’t watch the video; just reading “and the officer yelled back and told her that she could be arrested if she did not let him do his job” was enough for me to know why he prolly got fired: he was escalating the situation. Throw in the gratuitous cursing at her and yeah, I think he’s not in the right job. His employer thought so too and fired him. Also, the article does NOT say that Smith was a suspect in the original incident. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/151 "2020-08-23T20:01:27Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Cop called and he arrives. He sees video of suspect, and was directed to the house when suspect is alleged to reside. He goes to said house, visually identifies a suspect. Suspect is verbally combative. Officer makes several attempts to calm suspect down before informing her she was under arrest. Then suspect becomes physically combative. The officer was verbally combative and actually escalated the situation. Swearing at someone while shouting that they are required to ‘calm down’ is not an actual attempt to calm a person. > [@](#): > > > “After **several** warnings, the officer told Smith that she was under arrest. Smith resisted a lawful command and refused to be placed in handcuffs. _After refusing to be placed in handcuffs_, **she was warned that she would be tased**. After she resisted the officer’s commands she was tased and placed in handcuffs,” the press release states. “After she was placed in handcuffs she kicked the officer and continued to be uncooperative.” According to what you quoted, she refused to follow his commands but did not pose any sort of threat to the officer. According to the police in other encounters and several LEO-affiliated posters on this board, use of a taser is dangerous enough to justify deadly force in response, there are multiple police killings that are justified because a suspect had their hands on a taser (in some cases, an inoperable one known to be inoperable by the officers). That doesn’t sound like there was an actual justification for use of force, like her physically threatening the officer, but rather that the officer was a typical thug looking for an excuse to torture someone into compliance. My take is that warning someone that you’re going to use dangerous force in the form of electrical torture against them doesn’t justify the torture or use of dangerous force. But torture and life-threatening behavior by police seems to be well accepted by a certain segment of people. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/152 "2020-08-23T20:12:28Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > But torture and life-threatening behavior by police seems to be well accepted by a certain segment of people. Not just some people; MOST people. 11 years ago I asked the question right here on the Dope and responses were overwhelmingly in favor of police being able to cause harm in order to force compliance. > [@Is it ok to cause great pain, as long as there is no visible injury?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-cause-great-pain-as-long-as-there-is-no-visible-injury/496070/1): > > Inspired by some of the comments in the most recent [The Naked Wizard Guy Gets Tasered](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=515340) thread, I thought I’d lay this out as a poll, with an opportunity for some discussion (hence my placing it in GD). Many of the people in this thread (and in the many others we’ve had over the years) seem to be ok with taser use in general, citing that it is less likely to lead to injuries than a nightstick, gun, or other physical confrontation that police may use to gain compliance from a subject. Others coun… ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/153 "2020-08-23T20:35:59Z")
Didn’t count up replies, but at least there was a bit of pushback. And I would say that there is a big difference in context as well. If you are arresting a murderer, then maybe a bit of forced compliance is justifiable. But in a situation like this? No. Just no. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/154 "2020-08-24T13:18:08Z")
> **[Protests erupt after Kenosha police shoot Black man](https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/8/23/21398607/kenosha-police-shooting-video-officer-shoot-man-in-back-protests)** > > In a video, three officers could be seen shouting and pointing their weapons at the man. As the man opened the driver’s side door and leaned inside, one officer grabbed his shirt from behind and then fired into the vehicle. Police shooting in Kenosha WI. The video is almost unbelievable, except that we’ve seen this again and again. They just shoot him in the back, out of the blue, when he’s walking around to get in his car. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/155 "2020-08-24T14:02:06Z")
This follows a shooting in Lafayette, Louisiana, under apparently similar circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/156 "2020-08-24T14:59:44Z")
This is the guy armed with a knife (or something else shiny that clanked on the ground after he got shot), multiple felony warrants , and trying to reach into a vehicle after being told to, “Stop!”, by multiple cops with weapons drawn? Just trying to be sure we’re on the same page here. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/157 "2020-08-24T16:47:54Z")
You want to give them the benefit of the doubt – feel free. But don’t expect everyone else to join you, not with the history of law enforcement treatment of black people in America. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/158 "2020-08-24T21:29:23Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > In the appeal, her lawyers said that “her mistaken belief negated the culpability for murder because although she intentionally and knowingly caused Jean’s death, she had the right to act in deadly force in self-defense since her belief that deadly force was immediately necessary was reasonable under the circumstances.” This is literally the argument she made at trial, and she was convicted, because the law in Texas doesn’t support this defense. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/159 "2020-08-24T21:34:36Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > This is the guy armed with a knife (or something else shiny that clanked on the ground after he got shot), multiple felony warrants , and trying to reach into a vehicle after being told to, “Stop!”, by multiple cops with weapons drawn? 1. There is no knife. Nothing shiny falls to the ground. Why would you make something like that up when we can all see the video? 2. So what if he had outstanding warrants? They’re cops, not judges. 3. Why does a cop have to shoot you for trying to get into your car? Whose life was in danger? That looks like murder. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/160 "2020-08-24T22:01:16Z")
Aye; I noted that by quoting the later part of the article that made it clear the jury rejected that defense. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/161 "2020-08-24T22:02:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > > > This is the guy armed with a knife (or something else shiny that clanked on the ground after he got shot), multiple felony warrants , and trying to reach into a vehicle after being told to, “Stop!”, by multiple cops with weapons drawn? > > 1. There is no knife. Nothing shiny falls to the ground. Why would you make something like that up when we can all see the video? I wondered about that claim too, especially since he added the “clanked” part, like he heard it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=9)