Excellent observations on the all-too-familiar “cop families.” I know a few. Even off the clock they seem to have an “us against them” mentality.
As noted by others in this discussion, a huge problem is the militarization of the local police forces. The mentality that goes along with it is deeply ingrained. They use military titles to address each other (sergeant, lieutenant, captain, etc.) and refer to non-LEOs as “civilians.” (The truth is that cops are also civilians. Only active-duty military can call others “civilians.” But because LEOs like to pretend they’re in a military battle, they like to refer to us as civilians.) Combine this mentality with free military surplus equipment from Uncle Sam, and you get the situation we have now.
It’s very possible he was afraid that these cops were the type who were entirely negligent, if not worse, in their treatment of the bodies and lives of black men. And, in his terror, he felt the urgent need to separate himself from these dangerous, negligent enemies.
If so, it turns out he was correct. These were very dangerous, negligent people. No wonder he might have felt mortal terror and an urgency to flee.
I mean let’s be real the lady shouldn’t be a cop anymore based on this incident and should possibly face charges but this young violent criminal would still be alive if he had complied.
He also had compelling reason to avoid arrest. Wasn’t his first time at the rodeo.
We can hold two unconflicted thoughts in our head at the same time:
a) He did not deserve to be shot and the cop must to be held accountable for her fatal error in judgement.
b) This guy deserved to be arrested and by resisting arrest he bears responsibility for escalating the situation to an unnecessarily dangerous degree.
We may or may not have reason to think that this incident was racially motivated, but there is no evidence to draw this conclusion at this time. The victim may have been fearful of the police because of racial discrimination but much more likely, based on reported evidence of priors, he was attempting to evade arrest/justice.
You don’t think that he’s heard, over and over, all his life, that complying with police orders does not mean that you are safe from abuse or even murder?
Yes, the problem is that people are afraid that the police will murder them.
Well, he didn’t have a gun, so that’s obviously not the case.
As far as driving away, yeah, that’s pretty likely, as he felt that he had a better chance of not being murdered if he did so. That the cop was faster at murdering him than he was at escaping isn’t really his fault there.
Hard to complain from a casket.
So, you shouldn’t react to torture, you should just try to sue about it later?
Tell me, if a cop starts punching you in the face, throwing you to the ground, and kneeling on your neck, will you just accept such treatment without complaint, secure in the knowledge that no one will give a fuck about it later?
And the reason that they do so is to separate them from combatants. In the military, civilians are to be protected. In law enforcement “civilians” are to be subjugated.
Should we simply suspend policing in cases where the suspect is black?
Under what circumstances, if any, would you advise a black suspect to surrender peacefully to police?
(I hope your answer isn’t as predictable and unhelpful as, “When cops stop killing black people!”, because I think we all agree that this is not a matter of controversy.)
This is a bullshit misrepresentation of what I said and you know it.
Maybe we stop policing with an eye for looking for something to arrest people for.
Most, as it seems as though they stand a slightly higher chance of being murdered if they try to avoid the threatening situation that the cop is putting them in.
Let me ask you, what circumstances, if not all, would you advise a cop to use force and to arrest someone for non-violent infractions? What circumstances, if not all, would you advise them to kill over non-violent infractions?
It would be nice, but I’d say when cops learn to de-escalate, to use appropriate measures, and to not escalate every situation so that the person that they are encountering is not in fear for their safety.
Do you really feel as though the cop did nothing wrong in this situation, all of this was the fault of the person that the cop shot?
I’m for changing rules so that cops are not responsible for enforcing expired tags. Let’s do that. I’ve little doubt a single cop will object.
Now you’re the one making a bullshit representation of what I am saying.
There is no circumstance under which force should be used by cops unless force is justified due to violence or threat by the suspect, including resistance to arrest.
Absolutely. Police must be retrained for de-escalation tactics, first and foremost.
The cop did nothing wrong up until the point where the suspect actively evaded arrest. Then the cop committed a fatal error. The escalation, however, is entirely due to the actions/decisions by the suspect (in this case). FWIW, I can cite several cases in which the cop is wholly responsible, but this is not one of those, IMO.
Fuck that shit. I’m not going to rhetorically convict this guy of “deserved to be arrested”. For all we know he had an (accurate) sense that these cops were going to kill him and acted upon it.
This benefit of the doubt to the police that you’re defaulting to is just a huge, huge part of the problem. Police culture is broken. They shouldn’t be trusted to be acting in good faith when an unarmed young person ends up dead. This is a bad, broken system, filled with enablers and very, very few actually good people trying to fix it.
I think that many will object. It gives them something to pull people over for, a chance to look for contraband or outstanding warrants.
It’s the pit, so turnabout’s fair play, don’t you think?
I’m with you up to the last 4 words there. If the arrest is over non-violent infractions, then I don’t see why violence is justified to enforce it.
If that means that a non-violent offender occasionally gets away, then that’s a price that I’m willing to pay.
Agreed. But this is not the case. I did not see any attempts at de-escalation, I saw increasing hostility on the part of the cop.
This is where you and I disagree. I can think of many ways that the cop could have handled that in such a way that it did not make him feel as though his life was in danger. There wasn’t even a reason to affect an arrest at that time. “Hey, did you know that you missed your court date for that misdemeanor charge?” “Oh, I missed that. I don’t think I ever got anything in the mail about when the date was.” “Okay, let me make sure that I have your proper contact information, and we will send you a new court date. Make sure you show up for it.”
We should also allow people to schedule their own court dates. In most states, an employer is not required to give you time off to go to court (unless you are on the jury). Jobs, transportation, or other obligations may make it difficult for one to attend the assigned date.
I have an employee who has had some minor issues with the law. She occasionally is given less than 24 hours notice that she needs to attend a hearing or other court mandated event. I would be fully within my rights to fire her over the disruption this causes my business. I choose not to, but not employers would make that choice.
I’ll agree that he reacted poorly to a situation that he was not trained or prepared for. But, I’ll also point out that the person who killed him was trained and prepared for this situation.
She is 100% responsible for his death, and I’d say 90% responsible for the situation that lead up to it.
I think this is indeed part of the problem. Police departments (and thus officers) are seemingly obsessed with total compliance and complete physical domination of someone they merely perceive as being difficult. Police departments everywhere have been brainwashed into hyper-aggression.
I agree that someone shouldn’t feel entitled to just thumb their noses at the law, even if we’re dealing with minor offenses. But a guy who freaks out in the heat of the moment and decides to flee over a bench warrant? I don’t know if the police need to aggressively pursue that – there is nothing magical about the present in eventually arresting a low-level suspect. They sure as hell don’t need to drive at 95 mph through city streets to catch that kind of sonofabitch, but they often do exactly that.
In fact, some years ago, I found myself in a situation in which I, as a pedestrian, could have been run over by police officers easily driving in excess of 80 mph in a zone that was probably 35. I was crossing the street at twilight and initially failed to judge their distance and speed. Before long I was startled, and then unsure whether I should go back to the side of the street or continue running forward - I chose the latter, but that could have easily turned deadly had I waited a moment or two longer.
What pissed me off to no end is the realization that, they - did - not - give - a - fuck. They were determined to drive however the hell they wanted, with blatant disregard for public safety – ‘cause tough guy training! And ‘cause you was’ in the way and we warned ya with our sirens.’ Police not only endanger the people they’re pursuing; they often endanger everyone else caught between them and their target. And they regularly seem to justify these kinds of practices, and then wonder why people are losing respect for them.
Given our culture’s infatuation with guns and violence, this country will always be a dangerous place for officers to do their jobs. I respect the work that good officers do. But the general public will be better served when rogues start getting thrown in jail and when departments stop being a little less like neo-confederate fraternities and more like diverse and professional law enforcement agencies.
The only think I disagree with in this post is the implication that the cops were brainwashed unwillingly. I think that many join the force because they want to engage in hyper-aggression, and look for any excuse to do so.
Considering that he was shot in the back, and died… yeah, we do know that.
Ultimately, cops LOVE to fuck people up when they aren’t being obeyed. It is the first, last, and only way they deal with “civilians” who don’t do as they’re told.
The cops didn’t have to pull him over. Cops can exercise judgment that maybe now isn’t the best time to pull over some kid for some piddly crap that’s not putting anyone else in danger. AFAICT that decision was made before they ran the plates and saw the warrant.
But some cops are predators and bullies. Whether that’s inborn or they’re trained this way doesn’t matter to their victims.
I didn’t say we know that. I said it was plausible.