# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 100
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1981 "2015-04-25T22:28:51Z")
[One hell of a race riot in 1921.](http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/19/survivors-of-infamous1921tulsaraceriotstillhopeforjustice.html) Or better characterized as a local war against blacks by whites. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1982 "2015-04-25T22:56:38Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > If anything, the events of the past year or so make it clear exactly why things like the Rodney King riots happen. They are no Sui genetics events that you can simply tut-tut and use to blame the black community. They happen because our society is squeezing black people so hard that there occasionally will be an explosion. Quite frankly, it is not just black people. The police seem to sniff around a person to assess whether they are a good mark. Anyone who is a bit slow-witted or simply marginal (just above poverty) will be easy to urinate on, and so they do. People who are better off, or mere more measured and confident, will tend to be treated with more respect. It sounds paranoid or communistical or something, but the police give the impression that their job consists of enforcing the class divide and even perhaps of widening it. Nonwhite people take more of the heat because they are easier to spot. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1983 "2015-04-25T23:32:27Z")
[Florida deputy stops unarmed black guy on bike, shoots him 4 seconds later](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-florida-deputy-shoots-dontrell-stephens-20150424-story.html#page=1) The bicyclist is now paralyzed from the waist down. The officer never faced any charges because the state’s attorney office determined it was a “good shot”. There’s video so you can judge for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![2gigch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/2gigch1/32/3313_2.png) [@2gigch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2gigch1)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1984 "2015-04-25T23:47:36Z")
Some rioting now in downtown Baltimore; some looting, arrests. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1985 "2015-04-26T00:58:25Z")
> [@](#): > > But Bradshaw said he believes PBSO has a firm grasp on its use of lethal force. And he emphasized another belief that he also voiced in the wake of the Stephens shooting: Do what the deputy says and no will be injured. > **[Florida deputy stops black man on bike, shoots him 4 seconds later](https://www.chicagotribune.com/2015/04/25/florida-deputy-stops-black-man-on-bike-shoots-him-4-seconds-later/)** > > On the last morning of the last day Dontrell Stephens could still walk, the 20-year-old was bicycling across Haverhill Road, talking to a friend on a cellphone. A truck slowed as he rode against tr… “Do what the deputy says and no will be injured” = “do exactly as you are told with no hesitation and we won’t kill you” That’s a police state ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1986 "2015-04-26T01:00:50Z")
I just wish these people would only riot for good reasons, like winning and/or losing a sports game. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1987 "2015-04-26T01:04:19Z")
It’s funny because it’s true ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1988 "2015-04-26T02:20:40Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > [Florida deputy stops black man on bike, shoots him 4 seconds later – Chicago Tribune](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-florida-deputy-shoots-dontrell-stephens-20150424-story.html#page=1) > > “Do what the deputy says and no will be injured” = “do exactly as you are told with no hesitation and we won’t kill you” > > That’s a police state No it’s not. The cops have a legitimate fear of armed citizens in the US. The perp wasn’t in compliance mode (ok by me). But he also had a cell phone in his hand which apparently was mistaken for a gun. Sucks all around. Not sure what to do about it. Is there a problem? Probably: [INDENT][INDENT] In roughly one of every four shootings, Palm Beach County deputies fired at unarmed suspects. The Department of Justice has criticized jurisdictions where the percentage of shootings at unarmed suspects was sharply lower. Deputies disproportionately shot at young black men, a third of whom were unarmed. Non-deadly force options, such as Tasers or batons, were seldom used prior to shooting. PBSO rarely found fault with a deputy’s decision to shoot, sometimes basing its decisions on cursory or incomplete investigations. All of those issues figured prominently in the Stephens shooting.[/INDENT][/INDENT] The data appears to indicate that the standard police procedures of Palm Beach County are wanting and in need of review. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1989 "2015-04-26T02:40:00Z")
This thread’s police malfeasance occurs during an era of falling criminal activity. Crime rose from 1960 to about 1992, dropping briefly during periods of economic expansion, then returning to their upward trend. Then [something odd happened](http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline): crime fell. And kept falling. Today we’re about where we were in 1972. Incredibly, violent crime was [falling or flat every year](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/1tabledatadecoverviewpdf/table_1_crime_in_the_united_states_by_volume_and_rate_per_100000_inhabitants_1994-2013.xls) during the Lesser Depression of 2008-2013. [1] This may have been due to some easing up on systematic lead poisoning. Lead tends to mess up with the early developmental process making its victims stupid and mean. Leaded gas was phased out starting in the 1970s: the drops in crime occurred a generation later. At any rate, I’m guessing that policing practices were formed during the tough on crime era. And that they may very well be mismatched to the current environment. Just as the current environment in the US doesn’t align well with that of the Afghan or Iraqi war zone, as experienced by many cops including Florida deputy Adams Lin. [1] The lesser depression will probably end this year, but we don’t have data that far, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1990 "2015-04-26T04:17:03Z")
I totally misunderstood your use of “lead poisoning”. ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1991 "2015-04-26T04:20:44Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > No it’s not. The cops have a legitimate fear of armed citizens in the US. The perp wasn’t in compliance mode (ok by me). But he also had a cell phone in his hand which apparently was mistaken for a gun. Jesus Christ. Just because a cop decides to harass someone does not make that person a “perp”. And what the hell is wrong with this cop’s eyesight that he can’t recognize a damn cellphone in broad daylight, in a non threatening situation? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1992 "2015-04-26T05:27:13Z")
> [@grayhairedmomma](#): > > Jesus Christ. Just because a cop decides to harass someone does not make that person a “perp”. And what the hell is wrong with this cop’s eyesight that he can’t recognize a damn cellphone in broad daylight, in a non threatening situation? Cell phones non-threatening? The constables have been getting shot by those things quite a lot lately, and in some cases, it has been very injurious, to more than just the primary victim. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1993 "2015-04-26T05:50:43Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > I totally misunderstood your use of “lead poisoning”. Let me try again. Crime rose and fell. Frankly, nobody knows why. But the reason could be low level lead poisoning in early developmental years. Exposure to lead at any level of concentration may lower IQ and lead to behavioral problems. Americans were dosed twice during the 20th century. In the early part, they were exposed to lead paint. From 1940 to the 1970s they were exposed to leaded gasoline. [Kevin Drum:](http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/01/does-lead-paint-produce-more-crime-too) [INDENT] Lead paint use rose in the early 20th century, peaking in the teens and then dropping. Then, in the late 40s, gasoline lead started to rise, peaking in the 70s and then dropping. Since lead primarily affects small children, you’d expect that kids exposed to lead paint would grow up and become more violent in the 30s, then taper off, and then become more violent again in the 60s. It should be a double-humped curve. And guess what? That’s exactly what we see in the data: [/INDENT] This is a tangent though. The point I wanted to make was that crime has fallen over the past 20 years and our policing practices may be out of sync. > [@grayhairedmomma](#): > > Jesus Christ. Just because a cop decides to harass someone does not make that person a “perp”. And what the hell is wrong with this cop’s eyesight that he can’t recognize a damn cellphone in broad daylight, in a non threatening situation? Well what occurred happened off camera. But when you have a non-compliant person reaching for their waistband, it tends to worry cops, soldiers and presumably ex-soldiers. The cop saw a moving object in the guy’s hand. So he got trigger happy. I won’t pretend there wasn’t a racial element involved. The victim was an ex-con, but calling him a perp was dickish. I retract. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1994 "2015-04-26T11:14:59Z")
> [@grayhairedmomma](#): > > Jesus Christ. Just because a cop decides to harass someone does not make that person a “perp”. So you think the cop was lying about the guy riding his bike illegally and trying to flee from the cop who was trying to stop him? ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1995 "2015-04-26T14:24:14Z")
[Police have been systematically going after the two people who filmed videos of the Eric Garner choking](http://www.vice.com/read/nine-months-after-he-filmed-eric-garners-killing-the-cops-are-trying-to-put-ramsey-orta-behind-bars) > [@](#): > > Taisha Allen filmed officers refusing Garner medical attention as he lay dying. In March 2015, police arrested Allen for being in a park after closing time. Allen alleges they beat her, leaving her covered in bruises and with an injured arm; she told Pix11 that cops recognized her and said, “You’re that little girl from the Eric Garner case.” > [@](#): > > On August 2, 2014, one day after the medical examiner ruled Garner’s death a homicide, the cops arrested Orta for illegally possessing a handgun. According to the charge, police saw him place a gun in the waistband of a 17-year-old girl—who according to both his and her families, he barely knew. > > Orta’s supporters saw this as an act of retaliation on the NYPD’s part. “Even the dumbest criminal would know not to be doing something like that outside. So the whole story doesn’t fit at all,” Ortiz told the Staten Island Advance. > [@](#): > > Orta told me police accused him of armed robbery three times, once even drawing a gun on him in the deli where he worked. He has documented his interactions with cops in two videos posted to his YouTube channel. In one, from December 2014, Orta, dressed in a white hoodie, incredulously asks an officer why he’s being hassled when the robbery suspect they’re pursuing was described as being dressed in black. > [@](#): > > This all came to a head in a pre-dawn raid on Orta’s family house on February 10. According to Orta, his girlfriend was naked and the police did not allow her to dress. They arrested Orta, his 25-year-old brother, and his mother, accusing them of selling heroin, pills, marijuana, and cocaine. > > The prosecution’s case hinges on nine videos of Orta or his family members allegedly interacting with undercover police. “He took the video,” an anonymous police source gloated to the New York Daily News . “Now we took the video.” But Orta’s lawyers claim the videos are heavily edited, show no drugs being exchanged, and even have altered time stamps. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1996 "2015-04-26T15:48:46Z")
[Sargeant lies under oath about defendent refusing medical treatment. And he woulda gotten away with it if it hadn’t been for this meddlin’ video.](http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/opd-starts-internal-investigation-excessive-force-/nk3Wd/) ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1997 "2015-04-26T16:05:24Z")
[http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/opd-starts-internal-investigation-excessive-force-/nk3Wd/](http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/opd-starts-internal-investigation-excessive-force-/nk3Wd/) If it was just one bad apple, a few cops, we could fathom there’s some bad apples. But when it happens over and over and over, everywhere, it really looks like a much bigger problem. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1998 "2015-04-26T18:32:49Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > If it was just one bad apple, a few cops, we could fathom there’s some bad apples. But when it happens over and over and over, everywhere, it really looks like a much bigger problem. As a matter of logic that’s not quite true. There are millions of interactions with cops monthly, and we only learn of a tiny share of them in the news and on You-tube. Anecdotes are not data. But we have data. For example, > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > There are 2 crimes to consider. Police violence and police lying. They prop each other. Police perjury is widespread. Almost 90% of prosecutors know this. > > “90%? Cite?” [Here ya go](http://www.newrepublic.com/article/121486/walter-scott-killing-video-sheds-light-police-lying): [INDENT] In a classic 1996 article for the Colorado Law Review, Vanderbilt Law professor Christopher Slobogin demonstrated that both “reportilying” (falsifying police reports) and “testilying” are pervasive in many American jurisdictions. > > Police perjury, Slobogin argues, occurs because “police think they can get away with it. Police are seldom made to pay for their lying.” Not just prosecutors but even many judges see themselves as sharing a common set of goals with the police of making sure the guilty get punished. Working in a shared enterprise, they are loath to challenge police perjury. “Prosecutors put up with perjury because they need a good working relationship with the police to make their cases,” Slobogin notes. > > Slobogin documented his case by citing a compelling 1992 study by Myron Orfield of the Chicago criminal justice system showing that a large percentage of judges, prosecutors, and defense attorneys acknowledge the reality of police perjury: “In his survey of these three groups (which together comprised 27 to 41 individuals, depending on the question), 52 percent believed that at least ‘half of the time’ the prosecutor ‘knows or has reason to know’ that police fabricate evidence at suppression hearings, and 93 percent, including 89 percent of the prosecutors, stated that prosecutors had such knowledge of perjury ‘at least some of the time.’” [/INDENT] So yeah, we have a problem, a problem that disproportionately affects American people of color. > [@Shalmanese](#): > > It seems to me the punishment for cops found lying in testimony should be especially severe. A huge foundational part of our system of laws is on being able to trust the testimony of cops. All of the recent evidence coming out of cops systematically lying and tampering with crime scenes severely erodes that trust. Good cops are caught in the crossfire when we become automatically suspicious of all cop testimony. I am not a criminologist and I’d wager neither are you. Any significant change will probably involve some unintended consequences. We may not understand things in a fundamental way. (I sure as hell didn’t grok to this, say, 5 years ago.) But FWIW, I agree. I suspect the lynchpin is police perjury. Here’s my proposal. [ul][li] A state level police oversight commission with prosecutors who can investigate police homicide and perjury. All police killings receive automatic review. [/li][li] Make police perjury a civil matter as well, so that it can be tried on the basis of a preponderance of evidence. [/li][li] Sunset clauses on the above, to address unintended consequences.[/li][li] At the local level, all weapon discharges should receive automatic review, as they do in NYC. Police perjury would be grounds for dismissal. The latter is an attempt to address the power of police unions: I’m guessing it would be difficult to oppose. [/li][li] Officers should be paid a professional salary. [/li][li] Teachers should be paid a professional salary. Just kidding: let’s not go crazy. [/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1999 "2015-04-26T18:43:23Z")
ETA: Oh yeah. [ul] [\*] Enhanced data gathering at the national level as well as research division charged with studying best practices. [/ul] This is actually the easiest part. We have a Bureau of Justice Statistics. There’s an ex-cop who has [the best dataset on police misconduct](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/an-ex-cop-keeps-the-countrys-best-data-set-on-police-misconduct/). He currently has a grant from the National Institute of Justice to continue his work. But it would be nice if states would pass reporting requirements. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2000 "2015-04-26T20:27:50Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > [Police have been systematically going after the two people who filmed videos of the Eric Garner choking](http://www.vice.com/read/nine-months-after-he-filmed-eric-garners-killing-the-cops-are-trying-to-put-ramsey-orta-behind-bars) Post 1968: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18315109&postcount=1968](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18315109&postcount=1968) NYC cops hate folks who “rat” on them. [Even to this day they hate Serpico](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/10/the-police-are-still-out-of-control-112160.html#.VT1I7iFViko). > [@](#): > > In the NYPD that means little next to my 40-year-old heresy, as they see it. I still get hate mail from active and retired police officers. A couple of years ago after the death of David Durk — the police officer who was one of my few allies inside the department in my efforts to expose graft — the Internet message board “NYPD Rant” featured some choice messages directed at me. “Join your mentor, Rat scum!” said one. An ex-con recently related to me that a precinct captain had once said to him, “If it wasn’t for that fuckin’ Serpico, I coulda been a millionaire today.” My informer went on to say, “Frank, you don’t seem to understand, they had a well-oiled money making machine going and you came along and threw a handful of sand in the gears.” I know this has been linked here before, but I believe not in this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=99) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=101)