# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 101
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2001 "2015-04-27T03:11:01Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So you think the cop was lying about the guy riding his bike illegally and trying to flee from the cop who was trying to stop him? Yes, yes, I do. Especially since the cop said he tried to stop him because it looked like he “didn’t belong” in that area. Much like George Zimmerman thought Trayvon looked out of place. I meant what the fuck - do we need papers from our masters saying we have permission to go somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2002 "2015-04-27T10:02:00Z")
[Two (former) police officers to be sentenced for repeatedly tasing a woman who posed no threat to either.](http://www.wbtw.com/story/28900886/two-former-marion-police-officers-to-be-sentenced-monday) The woman was wearing handcuffs. I’m glad they’ve been fired and charged. Let’s hope they do jail time. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2003 "2015-04-27T10:26:39Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Quite frankly, it is not just black people. The police seem to sniff around a person to assess whether they are a good mark. Anyone who is a bit slow-witted or simply marginal (just above poverty) will be easy to urinate on, and so they do. People who are better off, or mere more measured and confident, will tend to be treated with more respect. > > It sounds paranoid or communistical or something, but the police give the impression that their job consists of enforcing the class divide and even perhaps of widening it. Nonwhite people take more of the heat because they are easier to spot. Yup, they absolutely try to “size up” the public they interact with and it is disgusting. What possible relevance does asking someone where they work have in a random stop and harass? Say self employed, act self assured and confident is the best defense. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2004 "2015-04-27T10:47:44Z")
> [@TCMF-2L](#): > > **Measure for Measure**. Nothing changes. There are Bills going through right now (and there have been other recent Bills) aimed at allowing the police to deal with the Islamic Terrorist threat. > > The UK police either had, have or are moving towards having quite draconian powers. If the police suspect (or simply say they suspect) an individual is involved in terrorism then without needing to provide much in the way of justification they can stop and search the person, their home, their phone records… Suspects can be detained for weeks without charge, stopped from leaving the UK or stopped from entering the UK. They can be sequestered away hundreds of miles from their normal home or put under house arrest without being found guilty of anything. > > After each terrorist outrage (such as an off duty soldier killed and attempts made to behead his body, in the middle of London, in the middle of the day) these powers gain quite some popular support. But during lulls in terrorist outrages concerns are raised about the UK becoming a police state. > > Particularly because when there is some formal court proceeding (whether it is to justify a continuing detention or an actual trial on a specific charge) the trials are often held in secret and even inside the court virtually all details (names and such like) are kept secret. To protect identities and the safety of individuals, to protect on-going investigations and maintain secrecy regarding investigative techniques. > > Inevitably, since the most direct terrorist threat is perceived as Islamic and, further, since the majority of UK muslims are perceived as being of either of Middle Eastern or African ethnicity these police powers are used most commonly against non-whites leaving the door open to charges of racism and general Islamiphobia. > > Then there are the worries that, Pandora’s Box-like, if the police are given these powers they will use them more and more widely sticking “anti-terrorist” on as an excuse. Hence “Police State” concerns. > > Meanwhile - Part 1. The anti-terror powers I refer to include the ability to stop people leaving the UK. But applying these powers is seen as racist against people of Middle Eastern ethnicity. > > Meanwhile - Part 2. There are UK Nationals who are choosing to leave the UK to join the Islamic State to support the cause. Recently three young girls of Central Asian ethnicity (15, 15 and 16 years old) left the UK to become “Jihadi brides” to any random IS fighters who wanted them and there has been some condemnation the police didn’t do MORE to stop them leaving. > > TCMF-2L I’m not sure why you’re posting this. It’s an example of laws rather than an example of specific encounters. It’s a terrible law, one that the US shares. Also, this is extremely unlikely: > [@](#): > > since the majority of UK muslims are perceived as being of either of Middle Eastern or African ethnicity Unless, bizarrely, you’re counting people from the Indian subcontinent as being Middle-Eastern. They’re not. My daughter’s best friend went to school with the girls you mention; we now have leaflets sent out from the schools telling parents how to discourage their children from doing the same. I guess it’s better than nothing, but the three girls concerned did not have English-speaking parents, so that reduces its helpfulness. > [@Smapti](#): > > If adult human beings haven’t learned the appropriate way to obey the law and respect officers of the government, then yes, they need to have some common sense beaten into them. > > I have no opposition to people using the ballot box as a means of objecting to police practice. Vigilantism and mob justice, not so much. Those two positions are very odd when put together. > [@Steophan](#): > > You seriously think that accidentally killing someone would _not_ be a horrible experience? I think it would be terrible, but he should not go on an exotic holiday while awaiting trial. It makes it sound like he doesn’t actually feel that bad about it at all. > [@Steophan](#): > > So you think the cop was lying about the guy riding his bike illegally and trying to flee from the cop who was trying to stop him? Neither of those come close to justification for shooting someone. They don’t even to you, do they? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2005 "2015-04-27T11:33:03Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I think it would be terrible, but he should not go on an exotic holiday while awaiting trial. It makes it sound like he doesn’t actually feel that bad about it at all. I’ve no idea why doing something that had already been planned has anything to do with his feelings of guilt or otherwise. > [@](#): > > Neither of those come close to justification for shooting someone. They don’t even to you, do they? No. They are justification for calling him a perp. It’s actually possible for both parties to be in the wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2006 "2015-04-27T11:39:52Z")
> [@grayhairedmomma](#): > > Yes, yes, I do. Especially since the cop said he tried to stop him because it looked like he “didn’t belong” in that area. Much like George Zimmerman thought Trayvon looked out of place. I meant what the fuck - do we need papers from our masters saying we have permission to go somewhere? Since you raised the Zimmerman case… Yes, you’re absolutely right that Zimmerman, the Neighbourhood Watchman for the private, gated community he lived in correctly observed that Martin wasn’t a resident there. It’s unfortunate, to put it mildly, that rather than explain that he was staying with relatives, Martin chose to punch Zimmerman repeatedly in the face. Similarly, if a cop notices someone who isn’t a resident riding or driving erratically and illegally, and then fleeing from them, damn right they should be stopping and questioning them. it’s their fucking job. No, you don’t need permission to go somewhere (unless it’s private, like the place Martin went), but you also aren’t allowed to break the law and flee from the police. But hey, you stick to your absurd worldview where the cops are the bad guys and the criminals good guys. ---
**Author:** ![TCMF-2L](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tcmf-2l/32/16553_2.png) [@TCMF-2L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TCMF-2L)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2007 "2015-04-27T14:23:07Z")
Sci-Fi Sam. My post, that you quoted, was intended to discuss a point raised earlier about the general perception of the police in the UK. It was intended to be general rather than specific. My comment within that post > [@](#): > > since the majority of UK muslims are perceived as being of either of Middle Eastern or African ethnicity was, as you have highlighted, complete bollocks since it excludes Indian/Asian. In the context of what I was trying to say I should have just said “non-white.” However you say the three Jihadi brides had parents who don’t speak English. The father of at least one of the girls, Abase Hussen - father of Amira Abase, has gained a certain notoriety himself amid suggestions he has had a vague association with terrorists. He issued an appeal for his daughter to return and in it he speaks perfect English. There is a link to the appeal in this (sensationalist) coverage of his alleged terrorist connections: > **[Father of 'jihadi bride' girl attended rally with Lee Rigby killer](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3013703/Father-jihadi-bride-schoolgirl-attended-2012-Islamist-rally-attended-Lee-Rigby-s-killer-led-preacher-Anjem-Choudary.html)** > > The father of one of the three schoolgirl 'jihadi brides', Abase Hussen, attended a notorious Islamist rally in London attended by Michael Adebolajo, the killer of soldier Lee Rigby. TCMF-2L ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2008 "2015-04-27T14:47:27Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Since you raised the Zimmerman case… Yes, you’re absolutely right that Zimmerman, the Neighbourhood Watchman for the private, gated community he lived in correctly observed that Martin wasn’t a resident there. It’s unfortunate, to put it mildly, that rather than explain that he was staying with relatives, Martin chose to punch Zimmerman repeatedly in the face. Wonder what it was about Martin that made Zimmerman question whether he belonged? Hmmm… think think think. I’ve got it! It may have been Martin’s race! So a neighborhood watch dude thinks he has the right to murder unarmed black men. In most places that sort of thing is left to the police. If none of this outrages you- you’re an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2009 "2015-04-27T14:51:30Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’ve no idea why doing something that had already been planned has anything to do with his feelings of guilt or otherwise… So if a black man was on bail for the manslaughter death of a white police officer, you’d be okay with him going on vacation? Given your posting history, I’d doubt that. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2010 "2015-04-27T15:17:27Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > So if a black man was on bail for the manslaughter death of a white police officer, you’d be okay with him going on vacation? Given your posting history, I’d doubt that. Depends if they’re a flight risk. Same rules apply. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2011 "2015-04-27T15:21:40Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Since you raised the Zimmerman case… Yes, you’re absolutely right that Zimmerman, the Neighbourhood Watchman for the private, gated community he lived in correctly observed that Martin wasn’t a resident there. It’s unfortunate, to put it mildly, that rather than explain that he was staying with relatives, Martin chose to punch Zimmerman repeatedly in the face… snip Yep, I’m sure that’s exactly how it went down… Zimmerman: Pardon be, good fellow… Martin: Now I must punch you repeatedly! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2012 "2015-04-27T15:22:48Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Wonder what it was about Martin that made Zimmerman question whether he belonged? Hmmm… think think think. I’ve got it! It may have been Martin’s race! Or, just possibly, it may have been that fact that he didn’t live there. You do understand that, right? You do get that Zimmerman wasn’t, in fact, wrong that Martin wasn’t a resident there, he was a visitor? I have no idea why people immediately assume race has anything to do with it, and one look at Zimmerman’s past would make it obvious that it wasn’t. But don’t let the facts get in the way of your idiotic worldview. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2013 "2015-04-27T15:25:01Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > snip > > Yep, I’m sure that’s exactly how it went down… > > Zimmerman: Pardon be, good fellow… > Martin: Now I must punch you repeatedly! I don’t think you have the dialogue exactly right, but that appears to have been the sequence of events. If you have evidence otherwise, I’d have to wonder why you didn’t let anyone know prior to the trial. Or, like others, are you just ignoring the facts because they don’t suit you? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2014 "2015-04-27T15:27:17Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Or, just possibly, it may have been that fact that he didn’t live there. You do understand that, right? You do get that Zimmerman wasn’t, in fact, wrong that Martin wasn’t a resident there, he was a visitor? I have no idea why people immediately assume race has anything to do with it, and one look at Zimmerman’s past would make it obvious that it wasn’t. > > But don’t let the facts get in the way of your idiotic worldview. And why would Zimmerman have suspected this? What was his first clue? I know Zim is a hero to ammosexuals but we all know that if it was a white kid that he didn’t know, he wouldn’t have thought twice about it. ---
**Author:** ![Sasquatch\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8491ac/32.png) [@Sasquatch\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sasquatch_1)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2015 "2015-04-27T16:21:12Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > [SF Police are being sued for shooting a man in the back as he ran away](http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Lawsuit-says-S-F-police-killed-Mission-man-as-he-6222579.php). The police claim they shot in self defense as the man was charging at them with a knife which contradicts all available evidence. > > It seems to me the punishment for cops found lying in testimony should be especially severe. A huge foundational part of our system of laws is on being able to trust the testimony of cops. All of the recent evidence coming out of cops systematically lying and tampering with crime scenes severely erodes that trust. Good cops are caught in the crossfire when we become automatically suspicious of all cop testimony. So much. I wonder when a TV series cop show will come out where internal review are the good guys? Hardly anything pisses me off as much as law enforcement / government agents lying in official statements. At the very least, lying in an official capacity should be a huge aggravating factor in sentencing. Personally, I’d go with - max sentence for the offense, no reduction - if you get convicted of any offense and it is showed you lied about anything relevant in an official capacity. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2016 "2015-04-27T16:23:11Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You do get that Zimmerman wasn’t, in fact, wrong that Martin wasn’t a resident there, he was a visitor? Sorry, but I wouldn’t want some violent wanna-be killing my visitors. ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2017 "2015-04-27T18:10:03Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Or, just possibly, it may have been that fact that he didn’t live there. You do understand that, right? You do get that Zimmerman wasn’t, in fact, wrong that Martin wasn’t a resident there, he was a visitor? I have no idea why people immediately assume race has anything to do with it, and one look at Zimmerman’s past would make it obvious that it wasn’t. > > But don’t let the facts get in the way of your idiotic worldview. Got it, so it’s back to sundown towns then? We best get the fuck out of dodge after dark? Better yet, how about we just stay on our side of the tracks so no one gets confused about where we’re supposed to be. Zimmerman, instead of being blinded by the fact that Trayvon was a young black man in a hoodie, could have opened his eyes and seen him as a person walking with a bag of skittles and a a drink. I can guarantee from being around many young men talking to their girlfriends on the phone, that there wouldn’t have been anything suspicious about Trayvon’s demeanor except maybe a slight hurry to get out of the rain. If that assole had seen that young man as a person and not a “perp”, maybe his asshole face wouldn’t have gotten punched. But I guess it’s too much to hope for to be seen as people, today. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2018 "2015-04-27T18:38:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Or, just possibly, it may have been that fact that he didn’t live there. You do understand that, right? You do get that Zimmerman wasn’t, in fact, wrong that Martin wasn’t a resident there, he was a visitor? I have no idea why people immediately assume race has anything to do with it, and one look at Zimmerman’s past would make it obvious that it wasn’t. > > But don’t let the facts get in the way of your idiotic worldview. So, your contention is that Zimmerman knew, by sight, everyone who lived in the community? And even if he did, what was it that Martin did that caused Zimmerman (who was, IIRC, not actually a neighborhood watch member, just a wannabe) to approach him in the first place? Even if Martin did strike first, if Zimmerman had just minded his own business, none of the ensuing cluster fuck would have happened. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2019 "2015-04-27T20:04:30Z")
I’m willing to accept that if he saw a white youth with _yakuza_-style tattoo coverage, a purple Mohawk and a face decorated by a staple-gun, he might have been equally suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2020 "2015-04-27T20:13:43Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Even if Martin did strike first, if Zimmerman had just minded his own business, none of the ensuing cluster fuck would have happened. Which if memory serves me correct, wasn’t positively established since the only available witness had an incredible incentive to lie. We do know there was a scuffle. We don’t know who started it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=100) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=102)