# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 102
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2021 "2015-04-27T20:19:59Z")
> [@grayhairedmomma](#): > > Got it, so it’s back to sundown towns then? Nope. Do you understand that it was a private, gated community? That they have an actual right to keep whoever the fuck they like outside? I rather doubt it was due to race, since the guy Martin was visiting was black… I swear some people here would only have been happy if Martin had been able to beat Zimmerman to death, and then not punished for it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2022 "2015-04-27T20:24:29Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Sorry, but I wouldn’t want some violent wanna-be killing my visitors. Neither would I, which is why I’m glad there was someone like Zimmerman there to protect against them. You understand that Martin was the violent one, right? That the only one who had _any_ signs of being attacked before the shooting was Zimmerman? Or are you just ignoring the facts to support your prejudices? This, at least, will be illuminating. Anyone here who thinks Zimmerman was anything other than a victim of an assault can’t be trusted to see what’s actually happening, is too blinded by their presumptions of racism to see anything else, and their opinions on police misconduct are only worthy of being dismissed out of hand. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2023 "2015-04-27T20:30:09Z")
> [@grayhairedmomma](#): > > If that assole had seen that young man as a person and not a “perp”, maybe his asshole face wouldn’t have gotten punched. So it’s perfectly OK to physically assault law-abiding civilians as long as you’ve determined that they’re “assholes”? ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2024 "2015-04-27T20:31:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > This, at least, will be illuminating. Anyone here who thinks Zimmerman was anything other than a victim of an assault can’t be trusted to see what’s actually happening, is too blinded by their presumptions of racism to see anything else, and their opinions on police misconduct are only worthy of being dismissed out of hand. Assuming facts not in evidence. Just because Zimmerman lost the fight, doesn’t mean he didn’t initiate. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2025 "2015-04-27T20:56:12Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Assuming facts not in evidence. Just because Zimmerman lost the fight, doesn’t mean he didn’t initiate. The only evidence we have points to, but doesn’t prove, Martin starting the fight. It seems odd, to put it mildly, that so many people want to claim that couldn’t possibly be the case. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2026 "2015-04-27T20:57:46Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Nope. Do you understand that it was a private, gated community? That they have an actual right to keep whoever the fuck they like outside? I rather doubt it was due to race, since the guy Martin was visiting was black… > > I swear some people here would only have been happy if Martin had been able to beat Zimmerman to death, and then not punished for it. Personally, I think the jury got it right. But, that said, if the event had gone the other way and Martin had shot Zimmerman instead of the other way around he should have gotten off also. He had no duty to retreat and would have been justified using lethal force if he felt in danger of bodily harm; which I believe he probably felt given Zimmerman’s aggressive pursuit and confrontation of him. Those stand your ground laws are stupid and basically bring back the wild west. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2027 "2015-04-27T20:58:40Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > And why would Zimmerman have suspected this? What was his first clue? I know Zim is a hero to ammosexuals but we all know that if it was a white kid that he didn’t know, he wouldn’t have thought twice about it. Zimmerman does not belong in this thread. He wasn’t a cop. He was (and is?) a cop wannabe. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2028 "2015-04-27T21:01:55Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The only evidence we have points to, but doesn’t prove, Martin starting the fight. It seems odd, to put it mildly, that so many people want to claim that couldn’t possibly be the case. I don’t think that’s the case at all. What if Zimmerman grabbed him by the hoodie because Trayvon wasn’t stopping for him. What if Zimmerman tackled him and tried to subdue him unsuccessfully. I can think of a tons of circumstances where Zimmerman started it but came out worse. Especially since he incited the whole situation by tracking him against the orders of police. Fact is, we’ll never know what exactly happened because the only other participant is dead and there isn’t enough evidence for us to clearly determine what happened. All we have is supposition based on Zimmermans’ statements. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2029 "2015-04-27T21:26:32Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > I don’t think that’s the case at all. What if Zimmerman grabbed him by the hoodie because Trayvon wasn’t stopping for him. What if Zimmerman tackled him and tried to subdue him unsuccessfully. I can think of a tons of circumstances where Zimmerman started it but came out worse. Especially since he incited the whole situation by tracking him against the orders of police. Fact is, we’ll never know what exactly happened because the only other participant is dead and there isn’t enough evidence for us to clearly determine what happened. All we have is supposition based on Zimmermans’ statements. What if’s aren’t evidence, they’re baseless speculation, and Zimmerman wasn’t ordered to do anything by the police. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2030 "2015-04-27T22:31:01Z")
I notice you always give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who kills a black person. You are a hate-filled bigot. ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2031 "2015-04-27T22:41:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So it’s perfectly OK to physically assault law-abiding civilians as long as you’ve determined that they’re “assholes”? Apparently it’s okay to kill someone for being less than an asshole, so why not? ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2032 "2015-04-27T22:45:20Z")
Shit’s getting out of control in Baltimore right now. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2033 "2015-04-27T23:37:50Z")
> [@Tangent](#): > > Shit’s getting out of control in Baltimore right now. I would note that it seems that to many, shit’s been out of control in Baltimore for quite some time; it’s just shifting directions now. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2034 "2015-04-27T23:58:26Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I notice you always give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who kills a black person. You are a hate-filled bigot. Regardless of whether either of those is true, I hope you understand that the latter in no way follows from the former. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2035 "2015-04-28T00:18:29Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > … Zimmerman wasn’t ordered to do anything by the police. Are you still touting this half-truth? Is your case based on emergency operators not having authority? Or the wording of the dispatcher’s “We don’t need you to follow him, sir”? Or some semantic distinction between _strong request_ and _command_? In contemporary English “We don’t need you to …” is often nearly synonymous with “We need you not to …” (Courts have ruled that a cheque with the usual wording "Pay to the order of " replaced with "Please pay to the order of " _is still a negotiable instrument._) Or do you just rely on any flimsy factoid you can find to allow you to justify the murders of innocent blacks? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2036 "2015-04-28T01:50:30Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Regardless of whether either of those is true, I hope you understand that the latter in no way follows from the former. You are a hateful bigot. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2037 "2015-04-28T02:05:45Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Or do you just rely on any flimsy factoid you can find to allow you to justify the murders of innocent blacks? Martin wasn’t murdered. Very few of the deaths referenced in this thread - probably none, but I’m not going to check all of them - can plausibly be construed as murder. There’s no pattern of innocent black people being murdered by the police. Not all killings are murder - most will not be. Some will be manslaughter, some negligence, some self defence, and some accidents. If a killing is murder, by definition, it can’t be justified. So no, i’m obviously not doing that. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2038 "2015-04-28T02:06:46Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > You are a hateful bigot. So are you. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2039 "2015-04-28T02:50:39Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > You are a hateful bigot. Bigot is too soft a word for Steophan. “Fucking racist” and “worthless as a human” are more accurate descriptions ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2040 "2015-04-28T10:33:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Martin wasn’t murdered. Very few of the deaths referenced in this thread - probably none, but I’m not going to check all of them - can plausibly be construed as murder. There’s no pattern of innocent black people being murdered by the police. > > Not all killings are murder - most will not be. Some will be manslaughter, some negligence, some self defence, and some accidents. If a killing is murder, by definition, it can’t be justified. So no, i’m obviously not doing that. You are a hateful bigot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=101) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=103)