# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 103
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2041 "2015-04-28T10:43:15Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Are you still touting this half-truth? Is your case based on emergency operators not having authority? Under what law are 911 operators empowered to issue legally binding orders to members of the public? > [@](#): > > Or do you just rely on any flimsy factoid you can find to allow you to justify the murders of innocent blacks? Martin was not murdered. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2042 "2015-04-28T11:01:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Martin was not murdered. Kid’s ok then? I could swear I saw news footage of his funeral. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2043 "2015-04-28T11:23:13Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There’s no pattern of innocent black people being murdered by the police. Do you think there was ever a pattern of innocent black people being murdered by the police in the United States? If so, when do you think that pattern stopped? Is it beyond the realm of possibility to you that there may still be a pattern? ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2044 "2015-04-28T11:30:36Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What if’s aren’t evidence, they’re baseless speculation, and Zimmerman wasn’t ordered to do anything by the police. Right, which is why nobody was convicted of murder. You need evidence of a crime, which wasn’t in sufficient supply. But no evidence /= innocent. As for the order, you’re right, it may not have been binding due to the fact it was an operator and not directly a LEO. I’m not familiar with anything that would give an operator that authority. However, when you take the fact that Zimmerman chose to disobey the operator, for no apparent reason since Martin apparently wasn’t an immediate danger, it certainly doesn’t cast Zimmerman in a good light; it makes him look like a hero wannabe. It further doesn’t surprise that it turned into the catalyst for a confrontation. To then turnaround and blame Martin for the entire thing seems…off. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2045 "2015-04-28T12:03:54Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Kid’s ok then? I could swear I saw news footage of his funeral. Oh look, another idiot who thinks all deaths are murders. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2046 "2015-04-28T12:19:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you think there was ever a pattern of innocent black people being murdered by the police in the United States? If so, when do you think that pattern stopped? Is it beyond the realm of possibility to you that there may still be a pattern? You’re gonna have to define innocent, but there was a long period when the law criminalised many people on the basis of race who would now (and may well have been then, by many people) considered morally innocent. A similar thing is happening now, but with poverty rather than race (although the two are obviously related). So no, I don’t believe there was ever a campaign by the police to murder innocent blacks, because such would not have been necessary, they could do it entirely legally. _That_ stopped 50 years ago. Yes, there’s an epidemic of young black men being shot and killed. But it’s not by the police, or by “vigilantes”, it’s by other young black men. Whether murders or Stand Your Ground self defence killings or whatever, the majority are black-on-black. The reason the cases we see in these threads make the news is because they’re unusual. The same with incarceration. Yes, the majority of people imprisoned in the US are there for things that shouldn’t be crimes. That doesn’t mean the people who commit them are innocent, they chose to commit a crime knowing it was a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2047 "2015-04-28T12:37:28Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Kid’s ok then? I could swear I saw news footage of his funeral. I saw news footage of Gerald Ford’s funeral. I guess he was murdered by natural causes. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2048 "2015-04-28T12:45:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I saw news footage of Gerald Ford’s funeral. I guess he was murdered by natural causes. No, that was Squeeky. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2049 "2015-04-28T13:05:20Z")
[ol] [li]Police have always been bigoted lying bullies; now they’re getting caught at it.[/li][li]I wasn’t there so I can’t know exactly what went down between Zimmerman and Martin. IMHO it’s equally plausible that it was either murder or self-defense. Zimmerman was acquitted because a murder conviction requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt.[/li][li]People who insist that every single time a black person is killed by a white person it’s murder, without exception, are imbeciles.[/li][/ol] ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2050 "2015-04-28T13:05:25Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, there’s an epidemic of young black men being shot and killed. But it’s not by the police, or by “vigilantes”, it’s by other young black men. Whether murders or Stand Your Ground self defence killings or whatever, the majority are black-on-black. The reason the cases we see in these threads make the news is because they’re unusual. Why even bring this up? Are you saying that because black men are often killed by other black men that it makes it excusable for police to kill them as well? Right wingers often bring this up. Why? What fucking difference does it make? Does the existence of criminals give police dispensation to kill people? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2051 "2015-04-28T14:02:47Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Why even bring this up? Are you saying that because black men are often killed by other black men that it makes it excusable for police to kill them as well? Right wingers often bring this up. Why? What fucking difference does it make? Does the existence of criminals give police dispensation to kill people? Because police killing black people is a tiny problem, black people killing black people is a massive one, and yet all the (manufactured) outrage is at the police. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2052 "2015-04-28T14:05:43Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Because police killing black people is a tiny problem, black people killing black people is a massive one, and yet all the (manufactured) outrage is at the police. We expect criminals to kill people. We don’t expect police to commit murder. What this really is amounts to “Who gives a fuck if police kill blacks? THEY kill each other anyway. What do you expect from THOSE PEOPLE?” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2053 "2015-04-28T14:15:56Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Because police killing black people is a tiny problem Police killing and otherwise mistreating black people (whatever the extent of it) is a massive problem due to the incredible distrust in that community. Like it or not, many black people have _rational and legitimate_ reasons, due to personal experience and personal interactions, to respond to police with distrust and fear. This is a big, big problem for police, and I believe they can and should be doing much more to address it. Body cams are a good start, but they’re not going to solve this problem on their own. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2054 "2015-04-28T14:42:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Because police killing black people is a tiny problem, Tell that to the friends and families of Freddie Gray, Tamir Rice, etc, etc. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2055 "2015-04-28T14:44:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Because police killing black people is a tiny problem, black people killing black people is a massive one, and yet all the (manufactured) outrage is at the police. Do white criminals kill more whites than police do? Would you be as nonchalant about whites being killed by police? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2056 "2015-04-28T15:16:38Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Do white criminals kill more whites than police do? Would you be as nonchalant about whites being killed by police? White criminals being killed when threatening the police? Yeah, they’re idiots who brought it on themselves. In any other circumstance, investigate to decide whether it was murder, manslaughter, negligence, accident, or justified, then proceed accordingly. Exactly the same as with black people killed. In case you’re not aware, there’s many mentally ill and/or homeless people of every skin colour killed by the police in America. But for some reason this is less of a scandal than black criminals being shot attacking the police. Which is utterly fucking stupid, shows an absurd inability to prioritise things, and proves that you’re only capable of seeing things in a racial context. The repeated claim is that innocent black people are being deliberately killed by the police, but nothing in this thread backs that up. We’ve seen criminals killed attacking or resisting the police, and we’ve seen the occasional innocent accidentally killed. No innocents being targeted. Fuck me. Just look at all the poor, victimised, law abiding citizens in Baltimore being hassled and targeted for using their right to attack people, loot shops, and burn down buildings. And the police are trying to stop them. FACISTS! NAZIS! You are a fucking idiot. What is happening there right now is _exactly_ what would happen if you prevent the police from stopping criminals, as so many here seem to want. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2057 "2015-04-28T15:39:38Z")
**Steophan** , the problem with being a hateful bigot is that you only see life through the lens of your hateful bigotry. As a result, you live in a world in which police harassing and killing black people is just a small annoyance and thus nothing that they should get upset about. In your world, blacks are violent and always getting upset about nothing which makes them scary and thus you’re okay with the police harassing and killing them. It bears repeating: you are a hateful bigot. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2058 "2015-04-28T15:49:04Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The repeated claim is that innocent black people are being deliberately killed by the police, but nothing in this thread backs that up. That’s not a repeated claim that I’m aware of – the repeated claim as I understand it is that there is a pattern of mistreatment of black people by police in many parts of the United States, which goes back to our founding and still exists to some degree. Racism may be part of it, but it isn’t the only part – I think it’s very likely that some personally non-racist cops sometimes still mistreat black people due to their race. I think it’s very likely that it often goes something like this – when confronted with a black individual (and especially a young black man), many cops (whether they hold racist beliefs or not) are just a little more likely to be nervous, a little more likely to see an innocuous and mundane movement or action as threatening and dangerous, a little more likely to draw their gun if they perceive something as threatening and dangerous, and a little more likely to pull the trigger if they draw their gun. It also may go the other way – with black people and especially young black men, many cops are just a little less likely to try and resolve a confrontation without force, and a little less likely to give them the benefit of the doubt, and a little less likely to ignore very minor infractions, etc. I believe it’s very likely that all these “little more/less likely’s” add up to significant and problematic mistreatment of many black people on the part of police. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2059 "2015-04-28T15:59:36Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > We expect criminals to kill people. We don’t expect police to commit murder. There are over 100,000 police in this country today. How many “murders” have they, collectively, committed in the past year? Three? Five? Where is your proportionate sense of outrage to the _actual_ murders being committed by actual criminals? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2060 "2015-04-28T16:00:55Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > **Steophan** , the problem with being a hateful bigot is that you only see life through the lens of your hateful bigotry. As a result, you live in a world in which police harassing and killing black people is just a small annoyance and thus nothing that they should get upset about. In your world, blacks are violent and always getting upset about nothing which makes them scary and thus you’re okay with the police harassing and killing them. It bears repeating: you are a hateful bigot. Can you point to where he actually said " blacks are violent and always getting upset about nothing which makes them scary and thus [he’s] okay with the police harassing and killing them", or are you just putting words in his mouth because it’s easier to shout down a racist bigot than to debate the points he’s raised? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=102) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=104)