# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 105
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2081 "2015-04-28T18:47:12Z")
It was happening forty years ago, 60 years ago, a hundred years ago. Isn’t it time to do something to stop cops from being able to beat, maim and kill people with no cause? ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2082 "2015-04-28T18:53:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And all of this happened _twenty years ago_, you say? > > Well, this is no doubt VERY relevant to events happening in an era where people graduating from high school were not yet alive at the time. [What about 2 years](http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/SF-cop-sues-claims-traffic-stop-racial-profiling-4979100.php). Is 2 years recent enough for you? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2083 "2015-04-28T18:54:45Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > **Monk** , I’m failing to see the hateful bigotry in **Steophan’s** statement. > > If someone points a gun at a cop, he’s gonna get shot. It doesn’t matter what color his skin is. Same if they pull a knife or whatever. Skin color is meaningless in this context. If someone attacks a cop, bad shit is gonna happen and that was the point of his post. Perhaps you could point out what was hateful or bigoted about it, other than its accuracy. Well, for starters, Freddie Gray didn’t do any of the things you list, but he still ended up dead. He was black and that’s enough for hateful bigots to assume that he had it coming. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2084 "2015-04-28T19:07:21Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > [What about 2 years](http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/SF-cop-sues-claims-traffic-stop-racial-profiling-4979100.php). Is 2 years recent enough for you? How about 4 months ago: [http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/12/13/off-duty-black-police-officer-racially-profiled-assaulted-by-group-of-cops-video/](http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/12/13/off-duty-black-police-officer-racially-profiled-assaulted-by-group-of-cops-video/) ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2085 "2015-04-28T19:08:13Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > He was black and that’s enough for hateful bigots to assume that he had it coming. He was black and that’s enough for hateful race-baiters to assume that evil white cops murdered him because **RACISM**. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2086 "2015-04-28T19:15:38Z")
Don’t be upset **Smapti** , when I called you an unhinged loon, I said it was with all due respect. Baltimore has a history of putting healthy people in police vans and pulling out people with spinal injuries. They’re called rough rides and last night’s rioters aren’t the only thugs in Baltimore, a lot of them wear badges. > **[Baltimore Sun: Baltimore breaking news, sports, business, entertainment,...](https://www.baltimoresun.com/)** > > Baltimore Sun ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2087 "2015-04-28T19:32:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So it’s one of those unknown unknowns, then. No, it would be a known unknown. It’s something you know you don’t know. An unknown unknown is something you don’t even know you don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2088 "2015-04-28T19:35:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And all of this happened _twenty years ago_, you say? > > Well, this is no doubt VERY relevant to events happening in an era where people graduating from high school were not yet alive at the time. You didn’t _read_ the story, did you? Here is a big part of the problem. The bad cops that use excessive force targeting minorities are not disciplined by the force. They are not fired. They are not ostracized. They are _protected_. They remain part of the culture. They end up training newer officers, move up in the ranks and can become sergeants, captains and police brass. The cycle continues… ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2089 "2015-04-28T19:40:57Z")
jjandyiiii said “Like it or not, many black people have rational and legitimate reasons, due to personal experience and personal interactions, to respond to police with distrust and fear.” That is absolutely true. But, like it or not, many police have rational and legitimate reasons, due to personal experience and personal interactions, to respond to blacks with distrust and fear." An officer of any color assigned to a poor black (or hispanic or pick your minority) neighborhood is likely to to spend most, if not all of his time, responding to the worst of human behavior. day in and day out. For years. Sooner or later they may (will?) become of the mindset of “In almost every situation which I deal with a black person there is at least one criminal and witnesses don’t want to cooperate (fear of retribution - not fear of the cops). The streets are filthy and houses infested with cockroaches. Therefore, most black people are dirty criminals” I am not saying that this is excusable or their perceptions are accurate but it is understandable, perhaps inevitable. The looting and arson going on in Baltimore only serve to reinforce the perceptions. This is a two way street. You can’t blame the cops for everything. I don’t now what the answer is. Cops need to be held accountable but so do criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2090 "2015-04-28T20:18:15Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > You can’t blame the cops for everything. Oh, you’re no fun. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2091 "2015-04-28T20:26:43Z")
Well, they ARE the ones with the almost absolute institutional power here. Makes sense to be a little more worried about them, no? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2092 "2015-04-28T21:28:53Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > jjandyiiii said “Like it or not, many black people have rational and legitimate reasons, due to personal experience and personal interactions, to respond to police with distrust and fear.” > > That is absolutely true. But, like it or not, many police have rational and legitimate reasons, due to personal experience and personal interactions, to respond to blacks with distrust and fear." This does not go both ways. Both sides are not the same, nor equal in their interactions. One side is part of institutional power, and one side is historically disadvantaged and mistreated. One side has the power when they interact. It’s absolutely part of the responsibility of every police department to ensure that its officers treat people equally and fairly with regard to race. It’s an occupation, not a race/ethnicity/etc. If a cop responds to black people differently because they’re black, _they shouldn’t be a cop_, and it’s the responsibility of police departments to find these individuals and fire them. There’s nothing comparable the other way – black criminals don’t have superiors that can fire them, and most black people disapprove openly and vocally of black criminals anyway. > [@](#): > > An officer of any color assigned to a poor black (or hispanic or pick your minority) neighborhood is likely to to spend most, if not all of his time, responding to the worst of human behavior. day in and day out. For years. Sooner or later they may (will?) become of the mindset of “In almost every situation which I deal with a black person there is at least one criminal and witnesses don’t want to cooperate (fear of retribution - not fear of the cops). The streets are filthy and houses infested with cockroaches. Therefore, most black people are dirty criminals” I am not saying that this is excusable or their perceptions are accurate but it is understandable, perhaps inevitable. The looting and arson going on in Baltimore only serve to reinforce the perceptions. Pretty much the same rationalization for mistreatment of black people in all of our history – “if only they’d behave better, they’d be treated better”… which not only ignores the fact that _most black people behave fine_, but it perpetuates the cycle. When a black kid sees his dad mistreated, and that black kid is hassled when he’s a teen, he’s a lot more likely to see the police as the enemy. > [@](#): > > This is a two way street. You can’t blame the cops for everything. I don’t now what the answer is. Cops need to be held accountable but so do criminals. Police departments need to be held responsible, and so do criminals. _But not most black people_. Most black people have done nothing wrong and bear no blame for anything. I believe many or most police departments have not done enough to ensure that their officers don’t mistreat people due to race. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2093 "2015-04-28T21:58:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s not even reasonable to suppose Oscar Grant wasn’t murdered? > > A person deliberately drew a gun, pointed it at Grant, and on purpose fired the weapon at Grant’s torso while Grant was lying face down, his hands cuffed behind him. Grant died, which is a reasonable thing to expect would happen when you do that. I mean, one could reasonably argue that was murder. The cop was not _convicted_ of murder, but that’s typical. Someone deliberately drew a gun and pointed it at him? That contradicts the evidence, and the decision at the trial. The officer drawing the gun not the taser in this encounter was _criminally negligent_ not _deliberate_, hence it wasn’t murder. So no, it’s not reasonable to argue it was murder, when to do so involves ignoring the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2094 "2015-04-28T23:52:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > “That said, my greater source of personal concern, outrage and sympathy beyond this particular case is focused neither upon one night’s property damage nor upon the acts, but is focused rather upon the past four-decade period during which an American political elite have shipped middle class and working class jobs away from Baltimore and cities and towns around the U.S. to third-world dictatorships like China and others, plunged tens of millions of good, hard-working Americans into economic devastation, and then followed that action around the nation by diminishing every American’s civil rights protections in order to control an unfairly impoverished population living under an ever-declining standard of living and suffering at the butt end of an ever-more militarized and aggressive surveillance state.” > > – [Orioles COO John Angelos](http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/orioles-john-angelos-baltimore-protests-mlb) Apparently, [the Orioles will be playing the White Sox Tuesday evening in Camden yards – with no one sitting in the stands](http://www.king5.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/04/28/orioles-white-sox-game-closed-to-public-rescheduled-rays/26523105/) ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2095 "2015-04-29T01:31:22Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Apparently, [the Orioles will be playing the White Sox Tuesday evening in Camden yards – with no one sitting in the stands](http://www.king5.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/04/28/orioles-white-sox-game-closed-to-public-rescheduled-rays/26523105/) My estimation of the Orioles just shot way, way up. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2096 "2015-04-29T02:36:35Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > An officer of any color assigned to a poor black (or hispanic or pick your minority) neighborhood is likely to to spend most, if not all of his time, responding to the worst of human behavior. day in and day out. For years. Sooner or later they may (will?) become of the mindset of “In almost every situation which I deal with a black person there is at least one criminal and witnesses don’t want to cooperate (fear of retribution - not fear of the cops). The streets are filthy and houses infested with cockroaches. Therefore, most black people are dirty criminals” I am not saying that this is excusable or their perceptions are accurate but it is understandable, perhaps inevitable. The looting and arson going on in Baltimore only serve to reinforce the perceptions. Crime has declined for the past 20 years. Cops are recruited with videos showing them kicking ass. Yet much of their job involves essentially social work - dealing the homeless, drunks, domestic abuse. We know that police training makes a difference, because the rate of weapons discharges by officers varies across cities and the variation isn’t entirely driven by crime. New York City cops are actually less trigger happy. Sacramento, Albuquerque, and Tuscon cops are more so. Training matters. Cite: [Don’t shoot](http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21636044-americas-police-kill-too-many-people-some-forces-are-showing-how-smarter-less) (sub req) ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2097 "2015-04-29T11:19:50Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Apparently, [the Orioles will be playing the White Sox Tuesday evening in Camden yards – with no one sitting in the stands](http://www.king5.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/04/28/orioles-white-sox-game-closed-to-public-rescheduled-rays/26523105/) The Marlins have a similar arrangement. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2098 "2015-04-29T14:24:02Z")
[Benji Hart: Baltimore’s violent protesters are right: Smashing police cars is a legitimate political strategy.](http://www.salon.com/2015/04/28/baltimores_violent_protesters_are_right_smashing_police_cars_is_a_legitimate_political_strategy/) > [@](#): > > I do not advocate non-violence—particularly in a moment like the one we currently face. In the spirit and words of militant Black and Brown feminist movements from around the globe, I believe it is crucial that we see non-violence as a tactic, not a philosophy. > > Non-violence is a type of political performance designed to raise awareness and win over sympathy of those with privilege. When those on the outside of struggle—the white, the wealthy, the straight, the able-bodied, the masculine—have demonstrated repeatedly that they do not care, are not invested, are not going to step in the line of fire to defend the oppressed, this is a futile political strategy. It not only fails to meet the needs of the community, but actually puts oppressed people in further danger of violence. > > \ > > We need to clarify what we mean by terms like “violence” and “peaceful.” Because, to be clear, violence is beating, harassing, tazing, assaulting and shooting Black, trans, immigrant, women, and queer people, and that is the reality many of us are dealing with daily. Telling someone to be peaceful and shaming their militance not only lacks a nuanced and historical political understanding, it is literally a deadly and irresponsible demand. > > The political goals of rioters in Baltimore are not unclear—just as they were not unclear when poor, Black people rioted in Ferguson last fall. When the free market, real estate, the elected government, the legal system have all shown you they are not going to protect you—in fact, that they are the sources of the greatest violence you face—then political action becomes about stopping the machine that is trying to kill you, even if only for a moment, getting the boot off your neck, even if it only allows you a second of air. This is exactly what blocking off streets, disrupting white consumerism, and destroying state property are designed to do. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2099 "2015-04-29T14:28:35Z")
It’s sad to say, but Hart does have a point: prior to the riot, there had been a week of peaceful protests and hardly any coverage. Once buildings burned, then the networks showed up. Besides, what would the Boston Tea Party have been without the destruction of property? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2100 "2015-04-29T15:04:02Z")
So Dr. King was _wrong_? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=104) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=106)