# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 106
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2101 "2015-04-29T15:14:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So Dr. King was _wrong_? No. “A riot is the language of the unheard” ― [Martin Luther King Jr., March 14, 1968](http://www.gphistorical.org/mlk/mlkspeech/) ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2102 "2015-04-29T15:16:12Z")
Maybe, I don’t know. But I do know that America has a tradition of responding to perceived oppression with violence and rioting. I guess if a person sees the Boston Tea Party as justified, then he, or she might have to view Baltimore similarly. Peaceful protest hasn’t been getting attention to what is a real problem, but rioting did. My preference would be for the US to take the concerns of black communities who say they are treated poorly by the police seriously and not just assume they are all a bunch of career criminal whiners who got what they had coming. Since we don’t seem willing to do that, I guess we’ll have to accept riots as a consequence. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2103 "2015-04-29T15:17:51Z")
See also: [“The law is the enemy”: What RFK can remind America about police brutality.](http://www.salon.com/2015/04/29/the_law_is_the_enemy_what_rfk_can_remind_america_about_police_brutality/) ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2104 "2015-04-29T15:23:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So Dr. King was _wrong_? No, but simplistic reductions of Dr. King’s body of work into absolute standpoints are: a) wrong about what Dr. King believed in general, b) not practicable in the real world, and therefore c) believed to be valid and useful only by those who benefit from the status quo. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2105 "2015-04-29T15:28:02Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > But I do know that America has a tradition of responding to perceived oppression with violence and rioting. And bombs, and shooting people, and war. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2106 "2015-04-29T15:30:57Z")
Exactly, I think you have to see the Baltimore riots in the context of America’s traditions of violent resistance. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2107 "2015-04-29T15:39:19Z")
Rioting is, to put it mildly, not a good way of convincing people you are not criminals. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2108 "2015-04-29T15:44:32Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Rioting is, to put it mildly, not a good way of convincing people you are not criminals. That’s what the (insert country here) ruler said, right before he started killing his people. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2109 "2015-04-29T15:45:47Z")
It seemed to work for the American revolutionaries. All I know is that I grew up in Virginia where there are plenty of statues of violent men who killed lots of people to protect their rights to own other people. We teach kids that the resistance of the colonists to the British was noble, even though there were plenty of examples of violence and the destruction of property (resistance to the stamp act often involved destroying property, for example). Maybe someday, we’ll be teaching kids about how the brave freedom fighters of Baltimore changed America for the better. Like I said, I’d prefer if we didn’t let the hateful bigots run things and dismiss the concerns of black communities with smug affirmations of their hateful bigotry. But if we can’t go that route, I guess we go with good old fashioned American violence. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2110 "2015-04-29T15:47:31Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Rioting is, to put it mildly, not a good way of convincing people you are not criminals. It is telling that, in 2015 America, there is a demographic that must continually prove they are not criminals. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2111 "2015-04-29T15:57:39Z")
Look at why Freddie Gray was stopped by the police: he made eye contact with an officer and then ran according to the people who apparently killed him. We expect poor blacks to shuffle along and know better than to make eye contact with the police; do they think they’re people? There is ample evidence that blacks are often mistreated by police, but the bigots don’t see it. Meanwhile, the right is convinced there is a war on Christmas because some people say happy holidays. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2112 "2015-04-29T16:11:38Z")
If you believe the only way you can advance your cause is through mob violence, then either your cause is wrong or you are. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2113 "2015-04-29T16:45:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So Dr. King was _wrong_? “I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.” -MLK, Letter From Birmingham Jail Or, to put it another way, [this](http://33.media.tumblr.com/d9fc3d25b219b26ce3bc0d6fc3a2d12e/tumblr_nnipw2TPmn1tspfaho1_400.gif). ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2114 "2015-04-29T16:45:40Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > That’s what the (insert country here) ruler said, right before he started killing his people. It’s possible to believe that both mob rule and tyranny are both wrong. > [@madmonk28](#): > > Look at why Freddie Gray was stopped by the police: he made eye contact with an officer and then ran according to the people who apparently killed him. Yes, it was obviously the eye contact that was the problem, not the fleeing… > [@](#): > > There is ample evidence that blacks are often mistreated by police, but the bigots don’t see it. What there isn’t is significant evidence that blacks are mistreated _because of their skin colour_. This isn’t 1965. If a violent, threatening black man is shot by the police (or anyone else), the focus should not be on his skin colour but on the violent, threatening actions taken. For whatever reason, young black men are many times more violent than any other group, as I stated before, including older black men or black women (both groups that are less violent than young white men). Why is it so unexpected that they would receive far more attention from the police? Don’t want to be “harassed” by the police? Stop committing so many crimes, especially in public, for fuck’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2115 "2015-04-29T16:47:52Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > “I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.” > -MLK, Letter From Birmingham Jail > > Or, to put it another way, [this](http://33.media.tumblr.com/d9fc3d25b219b26ce3bc0d6fc3a2d12e/tumblr_nnipw2TPmn1tspfaho1_400.gif). Ah, yes, then, he was wrong. Thanks for clearing that up. Order may not necessarily _be_ justice, but it is a necessary prerequisite for it. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2116 "2015-04-29T16:56:22Z")
New Jersey policeman Orlando Trinidad [speaks about a traffic stop for which he is being indicted](http://7online.com/archive/9446825/). > [@](#): > > “_I was completely scared. I didn’t know if I was going to go home that night_,” said Orlando Trinidad, a Bloomfield Police Officer. > > The officer came from the other side of the parkway and struck the car driven by 37-year-old Marcus Jeter. > … > > “_Officer (inaudible) is still yelling, ‘He’s got my gun’ or ‘he tried to get my gun’ and at that point, I’m in fear for my life and my partner’s life_,” Trinidad said, “_And I struck Mr. Jeter to his backside, trying to get his hands_.” > > “You’re repeatedly hitting him,” Eyewitness News Investigative reporter Sarah Wallace said. > > “_He’s not giving me his hands. And at that point, I still don’t know if he’s got a gun on him_,” Trinidad said. > > “So now you get to the car and you hit him again,” Wallace said. > > “_That was to get him to stop resisting, to get him in the car, to get him to calm down_,” Trinidad said. Naturally, Marcus Jeter [describes the incident rather differently (video)](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVaU8qm2LhQ). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2117 "2015-04-29T17:02:51Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Or, to put it another way, [this](http://33.media.tumblr.com/d9fc3d25b219b26ce3bc0d6fc3a2d12e/tumblr_nnipw2TPmn1tspfaho1_400.gif). So MLK would have condoned looting and arson in the name of a man who fled police and resisted arrest. Gotcha. If your goal is to _reduce_ my respect for the man, then you’re on the right track. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2118 "2015-04-29T17:06:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Ah, yes, then, he was wrong. Thanks for clearing that up. Order may not necessarily _be_ justice, but it is a necessary prerequisite for it. Shocking you would have a problem with MLK. So I need to know, the American colonists who opposed British rule, do you see them as thugs? They did after all, disrupt order. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2119 "2015-04-29T17:12:45Z")
I recently learned that “thug” apparently has racial implications. Given that the founding fathers tended towards the whiter side of things one supposes that “thug” is an inappropriate use of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2120 "2015-04-29T17:13:59Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > So I need to know, the American colonists who opposed British rule, do you see them as thugs? Have a fucking guess. Of course I do. I suppose it should be no surprise that a country founded on disrespect for lawful authority should have such problems with it now, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=105) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=107)