# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 110
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2181 "2015-04-29T21:29:29Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, I think that’s what happened. It fits the known facts, unlike claims of a beating. > > But, of course, in your world accidents don’t happen, people are never negligent Apparently it’s a [surprisingly common “accident”](http://www.vox.com/2015/4/28/8509065/freddie-gray-baltimore-riots). It’s almost like it’s done on purpose - the expected outcome probably not being “shattered spine” or “dead body” of course. Just beating the “perp” up in a “look ma, no hands !”, plausibly deniable kind of way. In \*my \*day they used phonebooks for that. You just can’t stop progress ! ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2182 "2015-04-29T21:32:04Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And your evidence that this happened in this case is what, exactly? As you said a minute ago, “This isn’t Great Debates, so I’m not citing something that’s blindingly obvious and that everyone should know.” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2183 "2015-04-29T21:37:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Does not a police officer have exactly the same right to self-defense that any other human being does? Not when his prisoner is cuffed and shackled. The police have a duty of care towards those in their custody, absent any evidence that the prisoner attacked them with lethal force. Since we have no evidence that such an attack took place, they can hardly claim they were defending themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2184 "2015-04-29T21:40:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > But if you don’t think someone could fall and break their neck, I really don’t know what to say to you. While laying, shackled and cuffed, on the floor of a paddy wagon? One of us has a very active imagination. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2185 "2015-04-29T21:41:38Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Not when his prisoner is cuffed and shackled. Can you prove that the injuries happened after he was cuffed and shackled? Can you prove that a cuffed and shackled person _cannot_ possibly cause willful injury to another? > [@](#): > > Since we have no evidence that such an attack took place, they can hardly claim they were defending themselves. Since we have no evidence that he was maliciously assaulted, we can hardly claim a murder occurred. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2186 "2015-04-29T21:42:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Does not a police officer have exactly the same right to self-defense that any other human being does? If someone tries to pick a fight with me and it so happens that kneeling on his neck is the best way for me to restrain him in the heat of things, should I ask him what ethnic group he self-identifies with first in order to ensure that I’m not accidentally being racist towards him? I’m not talking about people fighting, I’m talking about people who have given up, are lying on the ground, often already handcuffed, and in the case I mentioned, already shot. You might also enjoy that video of the guy who stole the horse getting the crap kicked out of him long after he submitted, again without ever fighting, just running. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2187 "2015-04-29T21:43:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Can you prove that the injuries happened after he was cuffed and shackled? One of the police already said he was OK when he went in to the back of the van. > [@](#): > > Can you prove that a cuffed and shackled person _cannot_ possibly cause willful injury to another? I don’t have to. There is no evidence of such an attack, so speculation is unsupported. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2188 "2015-04-29T21:46:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Since we have no evidence that he was maliciously assaulted, we can hardly claim a murder occurred. I never said it was murder. But the police have a duty of care once he is in custody. If they can’t prove he attacked them, or self-inflicted his injuries, they are responsible for anything that happens to him. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2189 "2015-04-29T21:46:23Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > One of the police already said he was OK when he went in to the back of the van. What, so now you _trust_ the police? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2190 "2015-04-29T21:47:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What, so now you _trust_ the police? You opened that door. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2191 "2015-04-29T21:47:23Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If they can’t prove he attacked them, or self-inflicted his injuries, they are responsible for anything that happens to him. He ran from the police. Everything that happened to him from that point on was self-inflicted. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2192 "2015-04-29T21:48:25Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > You might also enjoy that video of the guy who stole the horse getting the crap kicked out of him long after he submitted, again without ever fighting, just running. Running _is_ fighting. You may as well just suck on a Remington for all the good it’ll do you. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2193 "2015-04-29T21:48:35Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He ran from the police. Everything that happened to him from that point on was self-inflicted. Not after the was shackled and cuffed. Duty of care. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2194 "2015-04-29T21:48:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What, so now you _trust_ the police? As most people learn by about age 12, when someone makes a statement that is against his own interest, it is more likely to be truthful than when he says something that will benefit him. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2195 "2015-04-29T21:49:33Z")
I knew America had this whole “tough on crime” shit going on, but I did not realize up to this point that “moving away from a police officer” was, in fact, a capital crime. The more you know. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2196 "2015-04-29T21:50:41Z")
I really don’t see how anyone can doubt that his injuries and death were caused by the police failing to strap him in and then driving recklessly… And I suspect that the officers will be punished appropriately for it. None of which has anything to do with race, or beatings, or murder, or justification for riots. Oh, and note that in the few cases where people were injured like this in the past they received multi-million dollar payouts. Strange how that isn’t happening to all the other “innocent victims”, isn’t it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2197 "2015-04-29T21:52:37Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > As most people learn by about age 12, when someone makes a statement that is against his own interest, it is more likely to be truthful than when he says something that will benefit him. Of course, most people also learn that, just because you don’t believe a statement, you can’t assume the opposite is true without evidence. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2198 "2015-04-29T21:52:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Running _is_ fighting. Sorry, I didn’t realize that English is not your native language. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2199 "2015-04-29T21:54:33Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Not after the was shackled and cuffed. Duty of care. It’s possible for both sides to be in the wrong, and both sides to be responsible. Someone who resists arrest or flees the police is in the wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2200 "2015-04-29T21:55:32Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I really don’t see how anyone can doubt that his injuries and death were caused by the police failing to strap him in and then driving recklessly… There is no evidence the police drove recklessly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=109) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=111)