# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 111
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2201 "2015-04-29T21:56:37Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s possible for both sides to be in the wrong, and both sides to be responsible. Someone who resists arrest or flees the police is in the wrong. Not after they are in custody, shackled and cuffed. Duty of care. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2202 "2015-04-29T21:59:30Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Everyone breaks the law at some point, don’t pretend that’s not the case. No they don’t. That’s so absurd, it’s ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2203 "2015-04-29T22:03:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Fuck your cite. Everyone breaks the law at some point, don’t pretend that’s not the case. And we _know_ young black men commit the sorts of crimes that attract police attention more than anyone else. We’ve agreed that in other threads (although disagreed on the exact ratio), so don’t pretend you don’t know it. Fuck your generalization about millions of people. We haven’t agreed that “young black men” do anything, since most of them don’t commit crimes, and I’m certainly not going to accept such a claim with no cite. Most people aren’t criminals. Most young black men aren’t criminals. > [@](#): > > So where’s the ACLU, and all the ambulance-chasing lawyers to get the easy payouts on the fake warrants? If they weren’t legitimate for the most part, they wouldn’t be there. It’s not 1965, there’s not different laws for white and black. More “not 1965” crap – it’s not 1965, that doesn’t mean everything is fixed. The problems might still exist – they’ve existed for all of American history… why would they be gone now? There have been lawsuits, and there may be more. But departments have a lot of power – a united police department can stonewall real investigations, and real justice, if they’re so inclined. And they have been so inclined in the past – I think it’s very likely some of them still are. > [@](#): > > These people have _actually_ broken the law, _actually_ missed court dates and failed to pay fines. And slaves _actually_ broke the law by trying to escape. Some people _actually_ can’t show up to court on specific days, and can’t pay fines for a variety of reasons. Some systems really are rigged – for most of American history they really were rigged against black people… why is it so unlikely that some systems still might be rigged? > [@](#): > > What’s happening is you have a culture of people who think the law shouldn’t apply to them and get all butthurt when they get caught, instead of accepting it then getting on with their life. No, this is not happening. Most black people obey the law and are peaceful, and if you think the opposite, then I’m not going to accept it without a cite. > [@](#): > > This isn’t Great Debates, so I’m not citing something that’s blindingly obvious and that everyone should know. It’s not blindingly obvious that most young black men are criminals. The statistics don’t support this. This is millions of people. > [@](#): > > If you genuinely think that there are shitloads of black people being framed by the police for crimes they didn’t commit I don’t know if this is the case, and if it is, it’s probably not cut and dry. A system and a culture can be rigged in such a way (like America for most of its history) such that folks are technically in violation of the law, but are still being treated unfairly. > [@](#): > > , or having their civil rights violated, explain why there’s not a shitload of court cases challenging them. There exist organisations whose sole purpose is to do so, and yet it’s not happening. This argument could be applied to America 50 years ago – many such organizations existed back then, but justice was still not easy to achieve. And those lawsuits are happening – there’s no magic number of lawsuits that proves that this is really a problem or not. > [@](#): > > As I said, maybe they know something that you don’t - or more likely, that you do, and won’t acknowledge. I trust most black people when they describe their experiences. I don’t think they’re lying or making things up – I think most of them are telling the truth. Many of them really have been mistreated, and many really are treated unfairly. I don’t think black people were lying about their treatment in 1850, 1900, or 1950. I don’t think they’re lying now. I don’t believe that black people are suddenly some dishonest, untrustworthy group. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2204 "2015-04-29T22:06:16Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > No they don’t. That’s so absurd, it’s ridiculous. Of course they do. Driven faster than the speed limit? Copied a CD to play in your car? Been a bit too noisy after a night out? Jaywalking? Smoking dope? Almost everyone has done at least one of them. Then you get the petty theft and minor violence that something like a third of people have done (and that’s just admitted in crime surveys) - more violence for men, more theft for women - and many other things. Don’t pretend you’ve never broken the law. Very nearly everyone has. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2205 "2015-04-29T22:07:55Z")
[QUOTE=Steophan] Oh, and note that in the few cases where people were injured like this in the past they received multi-million dollar payouts. Strange how that isn’t happening to all the other “innocent victims”, isn’t it. [/QUOTE] Not really. A lawsuit takes time and money, which naturally acts as a “bar of admission” for poor victims and I’d also wager a majority of the black community doesn’t put much trust in the justice system to begin with (not altogether unjustified a sentiment. Rodney King, anyone ?). Also, your assertion is wrong : the Baltimore Sun cited four similar cases that did end up with multi-million dollar payouts from the city over the last four years. It does not state how many such suits were _filed_, much less how many similar \*incidents \*took place. There might very likely also have been a number of cases where the innocent victims weren’t innocent at all in the absolute, which seems to be the case for Gray in fact who had a long list of arrests over selling drugs. Which, naturally, would make them less than eager to interact with the cops/the law at all. But guess what : breaking the law does not give the cops licence to break it in turn (that would sort of defeat the purpose), and last I checked selling dope was not a capital crime, or a beat-up-is-legit crime for that matter. The reluctance of Bad Guys™ to seek legal reparations does not disculpate the cops from their behaviour, nor is the absence of lawsuits evidence of absence of said behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2206 "2015-04-29T22:12:59Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Of course they do. Driven faster than the speed limit? Copied a CD to play in your car? Been a bit too noisy after a night out? Jaywalking? Smoking dope? Almost everyone has done at least one of them. Whether this is true or not (and I’m not going to take your word for it), it’s irrelevant to this thread, unless you’re arguing that police are justified in inflicting violence on someone in response to such misdemeanors. > [@](#): > > Then you get the petty theft and minor violence that something like a third of people have done (and that’s just admitted in crime surveys) - more violence for men, more theft for women - and many other things. Certainly not going to take your word for this. > [@](#): > > Don’t pretend you’ve never broken the law. Very nearly everyone has. Not taking your word for it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2207 "2015-04-29T22:18:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Fuck your generalization about millions of people. We haven’t agreed that “young black men” do anything, since most of them don’t commit crimes, and I’m certainly not going to accept such a claim with no cite. Most people aren’t criminals. Most young black men aren’t criminals. Most people are guilty of some crime. Almost everybody. Why do you think young black men - a demographic usually considered to be the most likely to commit violent crime - are exceptions to this. > [@](#): > > There have been lawsuits, and there may be more. But departments have a lot of power – a united police department can stonewall real investigations, and real justice, if they’re so inclined. And they have been so inclined in the past – I think it’s very likely some of them still are. Against an individual, yes. Against a national organisation with decades of experience, no. > [@](#): > > Some people _actually_ can’t show up to court on specific days, and can’t pay fines for a variety of reasons. There’s no good excuse apart from being literally immobile in hospital. > [@](#): > > No, this is not happening. Most black people obey the law and are peaceful, and if you think the opposite, then I’m not going to accept it without a cite. Most white people are peaceful and break the law. Most asian people are peaceful and break the law. Most hispanics are peaceful and break the law. Why do you think black people are different? > [@](#): > > I don’t know if this is the case, and if it is, it’s probably not cut and dry. A system and a culture can be rigged in such a way (like America for most of its history) such that folks are technically in violation of the law, but are still being treated unfairly. Maybe. But if they’re being treated unfairly because they broke the law, it’s up to them to change, not anyone else. You know, do your drug deals in private places. Insult someone on the internet rather than punching them in the face. Fix your fucking car and slow down a little. > [@](#): > > I trust most black people when they describe their experiences. I don’t think they’re lying or making things up – I think most of them are telling the truth. Many of them really have been mistreated, and many really are treated unfairly. > > I don’t think black people were lying about their treatment in 1850, 1900, or 1950. I don’t think they’re lying now. I don’t believe that black people are suddenly some dishonest, untrustworthy group. When police “mistreatment” consists of expecting someone not to resist arrest, to identify themselves when driving, and to pay fines and turn up to court, I have very little sympathy. Show me the _innocent_ victims. Not the petty criminals, not the gobshites abusing the police and threatening them, and not those who think they should be allowed to break the law because other people do. I mean innocent people beaten or framed, not people stopped and questioned occasionally. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2208 "2015-04-29T22:21:37Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Not really. A lawsuit takes time and money, which naturally acts as a “bar of admission” for poor victims and I’d also wager a majority of the black community doesn’t put much trust in the justice system to begin with (not altogether unjustified a sentiment. Rodney King, anyone ?). > > Also, your assertion is wrong : the Baltimore Sun cited four similar cases that did end up with multi-million dollar payouts from the city over the last four years. It does not state how many such suits were _filed_, much less how many similar \*incidents \*took place. > > There might very likely also have been a number of cases where the innocent victims weren’t innocent at all in the absolute, which seems to be the case for Gray in fact who had a long list of arrests over selling drugs. Which, naturally, would make them less than eager to interact with the cops/the law at all. > But guess what : breaking the law does not give the cops licence to break it in turn (that would sort of defeat the purpose), and last I checked selling dope was not a capital crime, or a beat-up-is-legit crime for that matter. The reluctance of Bad Guys™ to seek legal reparations does not disculpate the cops from their behaviour, nor is the absence of lawsuits evidence of absence of said behaviour. No, it’s the resisting arrest and running away that justifies the use of force. Doesn’t justify the failure to strap him in though. And no, when there’s national organisations dedicated to fighting this sort of injustice, and payouts of that size, there’s no bar to suing - _if_ you have a case. Unless you think lawyers are turning down their cut of a multi-million dollar payout because racism… ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2209 "2015-04-29T22:25:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whether this is true or not (and I’m not going to take your word for it), it’s irrelevant to this thread, unless you’re arguing that police are justified in inflicting violence on someone in response to such misdemeanors. No, it’s perfectly relevant when you claim that most people don’t break the law. The police aren’t justified in using violence as a response to anyone committing a crime. They’re justified in using force in self defence, to effect an arrest, or to protect others. It doesn’t actually matter whether that person was a criminal before that, if they threaten a cop or resist arrest the become one. > [@](#): > > Not taking your word for it. Have you ever broken the law? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2210 "2015-04-29T22:25:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Most people are guilty of some crime. You haven’t established this, and bullshit like jaywalking is irrelevant to this discussion. > [@](#): > > Against an individual, yes. Against a national organisation with decades of experience, no. Yes to both, depending on the circumstances. Evidence really can be destroyed, and investigations really can be stymied. > [@](#): > > There’s no good excuse apart from being literally immobile in hospital. Bullshit. In the real world, it’s not so simple. Some people have the choice of their livelihoods and jobs or going to court. > [@](#): > > Most white people are peaceful and break the law. Most asian people are peaceful and break the law. Most hispanics are peaceful and break the law. Why do you think black people are different? Irrelevant (considering the bullshit “crimes” you’ve offered) and unsupported in any case. > [@](#): > > Maybe. But if they’re being treated unfairly because they broke the law, it’s up to them to change, not anyone else. Bullshit. It wasn’t just up to slaves to change the law in the 1800s because it was illegal for them to free themselves. That was the responsibility of _everyone in America_, and especially those with power, including police departments. If there still exists similar injustice, even on a smaller scale, it’s still all of our responsibilities, and especially those with power, to fix it. > [@](#): > > You know, do your drug deals in private places. Most black people don’t do drug deals. > [@](#): > > Insult someone on the internet rather than punching them in the face. Most black people don’t punch people in the face. > [@](#): > > Fix your fucking car and slow down a little. Some people can’t get their car fixed. I’m fine with suggesting that folks shouldn’t speed, though it’s irrelevant to this discussion. > [@](#): > > When police “mistreatment” consists of expecting someone not to resist arrest, to identify themselves when driving, and to pay fines and turn up to court, I have very little sympathy. The mistreatment goes far beyond this. > [@](#): > > Show me the _innocent_ victims. Most black people are innocent, and many of them have such complaints about mistreatment. I don’t think most of them are lying – there are your innocent victims. > [@](#): > > Not the petty criminals, not the gobshites abusing the police and threatening them, and not those who think they should be allowed to break the law because other people do. That eliminates a very small fraction of black people. > [@](#): > > I mean innocent people beaten or framed, not people stopped and questioned occasionally. These are not the only forms of mistreatment. If a black person is stopped and questioned repeatedly because of their race, then that is an actual, real-world injustice. Not as bad as slavery, but it causes real damage to America and Americans and shouldn’t be tolerated. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2211 "2015-04-29T22:28:59Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, it’s perfectly relevant when you claim that most people don’t break the law. You haven’t provided a cite that suggests otherwise. > [@](#): > > The police aren’t justified in using violence as a response to anyone committing a crime. They’re justified in using force in self defence, to effect an arrest, or to protect others. There are many examples in this thread and elsewhere of violence, usually against black people, not justified by any of these things. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t actually matter whether that person was a criminal before that, if they threaten a cop or resist arrest the become one. If they’re shot for reaching for ID, or shot while fleeing and offering no threat to anyone (and subsequently framed with false evidence on video), or beaten and choked to death for not moving in precisely the way a group of cops not in danger of anything serious, then it matters. > [@](#): > > Have you ever broken the law? Nope. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2212 "2015-04-29T22:33:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Nope. And now I know you’re not taking this seriously. Or possibly you’re delusional. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2213 "2015-04-29T22:37:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And now I know you’re not taking this seriously. Or possibly you’re delusional. Fuck your generalizations about millions of black people. They were trustworthy in the 1850s when they described the injustice in America. They were trustworthy in 1900. And again in 1950. I think it’s far more likely that they’re still trustworthy than that black people have suddenly become liars. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2214 "2015-04-29T22:37:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You haven’t established this, and bullshit like jaywalking is irrelevant to this discussion. What, so suddenly “everybody commits three felonies a day” isn’t one of the talking points for The Cause anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2215 "2015-04-29T22:44:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, it’s the resisting arrest and running away that justifies the use of force. Doesn’t justify the failure to strap him in though. I don’t think it justifies _any and all_ use of force. It most certainly doesn’t justify use of force \*after \*the subdual/arrest. Abusing the police verbally or being a complete jerk doesn’t ever justify it, either. Taking abuse in stride is half their fucking job. > [@](#): > > And no, when there’s national organisations dedicated to fighting this sort of injustice, and payouts of that size, there’s no bar to suing - _if_ you have a case. That’s an “if” large enough to shove a semi-truck AND my freakishly large genitals through, though. Short of having footage, or convincing witnesses proving that you were fine right up until the point you were handcuffed, then somehow somewhere along the line from there to the police station bruises appeared and bones broke as if by magic ; how do you go about building a solid case against the cops ? They can say you resisted arrest. They can say you “went for their gun”. They can say it all happened before you were arrested, or after you were thrown in the communal lock-up pen cage thingy at the station. It’s not like you can use carbon-dating to prove you got the injury from the ride in the van rather than the rough arrest. Shit, \*\*Smapti \*\*would believe them if, with a straight face, they told him it was all self-inflicted after the fact to make them look bad. And, because you’re the Bad Guy™, anything you say is going to be assumed to be self-serving bullshit, even by a jury, even if they’re instructed to do exactly not that. None of what you say goes against the whole “systemic lack of trust in the justice system as a whole” item either, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2216 "2015-04-29T22:51:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Fuck your generalizations about millions of black people. They were trustworthy in the 1850s when they described the injustice in America. They were trustworthy in 1900. And again in 1950. I think it’s far more likely that they’re still trustworthy than that black people have suddenly become liars. This isn’t about race, you delusional, obsessed idiot. It has nothing to do with skin colour. It has to do with _people_, and the way they act, in whatever culture. People _always_ do what they think they can get away with, and almost always are too fucking dumb to realise they will actually get caught. You can’t claim on the one hand - as you’ve repeatedly done - that the legal system is set up to force (black) people to commit crimes, then claim that those people don’t commit crimes. You’ve explicitly condoned people committing crimes - claiming that they have to work instead of going to court (false, court takes priority) or can’t afford to fix their car (tough shit, walk, cycle, car share, get the bus, whatever). Don’t then claim people don’t do them. Strange how you don’t find them trustworthy when they admit they break the law though… But, lets talk about breaking the law. I’ve stolen, I’ve fought, I’ve infringed copyright, I’ve been drunk and disorderly more times than I could possibly count, I’ve even on occasion bought and sold illegal drugs. And I’ve even been arrested occasionally (twice I think) but never charged with anything. Why? Because what I’ve done is extremely minor compared to what thousands if not millions of people do. And because I’m not stupid enough to draw too much attention to myself, even back when I drank. And my skin colour has nothing to do with that. Black people routinely get away with more than that, whether here or in your country. But none of that gives me, or anyone else, the right to complain if we do get caught. That’s what you seem not to understand. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2217 "2015-04-29T22:59:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > This isn’t about race, you delusional, obsessed idiot. It has nothing to do with skin colour. I don’t believe you – it’s at least partly about race. The injustices against black people for most of American history have been mostly about race. > [@](#): > > It has to do with _people_, and the way they act, in whatever culture. People _always_ do what they think they can get away with, and almost always are too fucking dumb to realise they will actually get caught. No idea what this has to do with anything. It’s certainly no excuse for asserting that most black people are lying when they describe mistreatment or unfair treatment. > [@](#): > > You can’t claim on the one hand - as you’ve repeatedly done - that the legal system is set up to force (black) people to commit crimes, then claim that those people don’t commit crimes. I haven’t claimed that, though this has certainly happened in the past. Most black people are not criminals today. > [@](#): > > You’ve explicitly condoned people committing crimes - claiming that they have to work instead of going to court (false, court takes priority) or can’t afford to fix their car (tough shit, walk, cycle, car share, get the bus, whatever). Don’t then claim people don’t do them. I haven’t “explicitly condoned people committing crimes” (though I certainly would for past “crimes” like fleeing from slavery, or sitting in the wrong part of the bus – would you condone or condemn such crimes?) – I’ve explained that it’s not always so simple. > [@](#): > > Strange how you don’t find them trustworthy when they admit they break the law though… Bullshit, since you’ve shown nothing of the sort. > [@](#): > > But, lets talk about breaking the law. I’ve stolen, I’ve fought, I’ve infringed copyright, I’ve been drunk and disorderly more times than I could possibly count, I’ve even on occasion bought and sold illegal drugs. And I’ve even been arrested occasionally (twice I think) but never charged with anything. Why? Because what I’ve done is extremely minor compared to what thousands if not millions of people do. And because I’m not stupid enough to draw too much attention to myself, even back when I drank. Do you think there’s the slightest chance that you would have been treated differently, and perhaps, worse, by police, were you black and in America? If so, do you think this might be a problem? > [@](#): > > And my skin colour has nothing to do with that. Black people routinely get away with more than that, whether here or in your country. Most black people do not “routinely get away with more than that”. I don’t believe you. > [@](#): > > But none of that gives me, or anyone else, the right to complain if we do get caught. That’s what you seem not to understand. It’s not about getting caught – it’s about mistreatment. If someone gets “caught”, they can still be mistreated. It’s not okay to mistreat someone in custody just because they’re a criminal. It wasn’t okay in 1850, and it’s not okay today. It’s not okay to treat people unfairly, even if they’ve done something wrong. I trust black people. They’ve been right throughout American history when they’ve made mass claims of injustice. I don’t believe there’s something special about today that means they’re wrong now. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2218 "2015-04-29T23:09:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you think there’s the slightest chance that you would have been treated differently, and perhaps, worse, by police, were you black and in America? If so, do you think this might be a problem? Yes, and no. I would have deserved it. > [@](#): > > I trust black people. They’ve been right throughout American history when they’ve made mass claims of injustice. I don’t believe there’s something special about today that means they’re wrong now. What’s special about now is that, for 50 years now, such injustice has been illegal, and the means exist to challenge it legally. But if you want to continue to claim that arresting and convicting people of crimes they actually have committed is unjust, carry on. It’s absurd, but stick with it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2219 "2015-04-29T23:12:01Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, and no. I would have deserved it. Here it is folks – according to **Steophan** , black people who are mistreated after being arrested _deserve it_. > [@](#): > > What’s special about now is that, for 50 years now, such injustice has been illegal, and the means exist to challenge it legally. Such injustice was illegal in many parts of America for much of its history, and yet it still occurred. I don’t believe that the “means exist to challenge it legally” everywhere in the country for everyone. > [@](#): > > But if you want to continue to claim that arresting and convicting people of crimes they actually have committed is unjust, carry on. It’s absurd, but stick with it. I don’t want to claim this at all. If you want to continue to tear down straw men, feel free. I’ll continue to trust most black people, and continue to assert that folks like you are wrong for claiming that black people who are mistreated deserve it. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2220 "2015-04-29T23:15:20Z")
The moral idiots just can’t get it, and they never will. Even if the cops had witnessed a man shoot and kill somebody, right in front of them, it’s still wrong, absolutely wrong to harm somebody they arrest. It’s a criminal act. It’s against the law. After you have somebody arrested, helpless, shackled (and probably already seriously injured), to injure them, and in the recent case, cause their death, is so horribly wrong, it’s beyond explaining. The fuckhead will never grasp this. They think that somehow it’s OK for the police to injure and kill people, before they ever see a judge, have a lawyer, are convicted of anything. This is third world brutal dictator level shit, it’s seriously criminal, immoral, unethical and really bad behavior. The kind of thing that people will shoot you for doing. The people who can’t get this, they are scary evil fuckheads. Seriously. You are useful idiots. You are dangerous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=110) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=112)