# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 112
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2221 "2015-04-29T23:42:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Here it is folks – according to **Steophan** , black people who are mistreated after being arrested _deserve it_. No, I’m saying that being arrested, charged and convicted for petty crimes isn’t mistreatment, and neither is being injured resisting arrest or fleeing the police. I’m saying that, had that happened to me, based on what I’ve done, it wouldn’t have been mistreatment. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2222 "2015-04-29T23:45:16Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > The fuckhead will never grasp this. They think that somehow it’s OK for the police to injure and kill people, before they ever see a judge, have a lawyer, are convicted of anything. This is third world brutal dictator level shit, it’s seriously criminal, immoral, unethical and really bad behavior. It’s OK for them to injure and kill people if necessary as part of an arrest, or in self defence. Don’t resist arrest. Don’t run away. Don’t threaten or attack the police. Do as you’re told, and challenge it later. Or, be an idiot, and get what you’ve asked for. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2223 "2015-04-29T23:45:51Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, I’m saying that being arrested, charged and convicted for petty crimes isn’t mistreatment, and neither is being injured resisting arrest or fleeing the police. > > I’m saying that, had that happened to me, based on what I’ve done, it wouldn’t have been mistreatment. Who are you talking to? I asked you if you were treated worse than you were after being arrested because you were black, would that be a problem, and you said _no_. Who has claimed that being “arrested, charged, and convicted” for crimes is mistreatment? I specifically asked you about being treated _worse_ due to being black! And you were okay with treating black arrestees worse! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2224 "2015-04-29T23:52:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I specifically asked you about being treated _worse_ due to being black! No, you didn’t. You asked if I would have been treated differently _if_ I were black in America, not _because_ anything. No-one should be mistreated, or treated better, or anything really, because of their skin colour. But that’s not what’s happening here. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2225 "2015-04-29T23:56:00Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, you didn’t. You asked if I would have been treated differently _if_ I were black in America, not _because_ anything. Either way, you’re okay with worse treatment of black arrestees. I’m not okay with that. > [@](#): > > No-one should be mistreated, or treated better, or anything really, because of their skin colour. But that’s not what’s happening here. I know you think that, but I disagree. I think most black people have been truthful and accurate through American history when they’ve asserted mistreatment and injustice. I’m unconvinced that, for the first time in American history, most black people are now lying or mistaken about mistreatment and injustice. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2226 "2015-04-29T23:57:19Z")
Bottom line – I trust that most black people are as honest and accurate today in describing injustice as most slaves were in the 1850s, and most black southerners were in the Jim Crow South. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2227 "2015-04-30T00:06:23Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > It’s just they seem to kill a lot more young black men, and old black men, and black people in general. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2228 "2015-04-30T00:15:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Don’t resist arrest. Don’t run away. Don’t threaten or attack the police. Do as you’re told, and challenge it later. Or, be an idiot, and get what you’ve asked for. Why waste time challenging the police in court, when even if you have clear video evidence that you did nothing wrong and the officer still shot you, he’s not going to be punished. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2229 "2015-04-30T00:19:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Cite? > **[Deadly Force, in Black and White](https://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and-white)** > > A ProPublica analysis of killings by police shows outsize risk for young black males. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2230 "2015-04-30T00:25:20Z")
> [@grayhairedmomma](#): > > Why waste time challenging the police in court, when even if you have clear video evidence that you did nothing wrong and the officer still shot you, he’s not going to be punished. If you’re challenging him in court, you’re not trying to get him punished, you’re trying to get compensation for injury you’ve suffered. As has been cited earlier in this thread, that’s been happening in Baltimore, with people getting multi-million dollar payouts. Not that in a criminal court, proof that you did nothing wrong and proof that someone shot you is sufficient for a conviction, whether police or otherwise. It would be nice if people actually cited some occasions of people who’ve done nothing wrong being shot, though. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2231 "2015-04-30T00:29:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Bottom line – I trust that most black people are as honest and accurate today in describing injustice as most slaves were in the 1850s, and most black southerners were in the Jim Crow South. Well white people are certainly happy to lie about injustice - just witness the occupy movement bullshit, or the tea party on the other side. Why would you believe black people are more honest? In short, pretty much everyone is at heart a lying scumbag who will do what they can get away with, and we need the police and government to stop people getting away with stuff. My cite - the whole of human history. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2232 "2015-04-30T00:40:50Z")
> [@grayhairedmomma](#): > > Why waste time challenging the police in court, when even if you have clear video evidence that you did nothing wrong and the officer still shot you, he’s not going to be punished. And you’re, you know. Dead. Which, granted, allows one copious amounts of free time. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2233 "2015-04-30T01:16:38Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > [Deadly Force, in Black and White — ProPublica](http://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and-white) [Bullshit](http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/john-lott-dangerous-distortions-cops-shooting-black-men-article-1.2030545). Got any solid cites? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2234 "2015-04-30T03:14:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Well white people are certainly happy to lie about injustice - just witness the occupy movement bullshit, or the tea party on the other side. Why would you believe black people are more honest? > > In short, pretty much everyone is at heart a lying scumbag who will do what they can get away with, and we need the police and government to stop people getting away with stuff. My cite - the whole of human history. I’ve actually clicked the back-quote links repeatedly to parse your logic. I’ve discovered that one of your syllogisms is (1) Everybody’s a criminal (2) Therefore all black men are criminals (3) Therefore cops are justified singling out black men for abuse. I do realize your arguments were intended to be more nuanced but in the debate you’ve responded to pushes with hyperbole and half-truths and actually ended up relying on the above “syllogism” ! Now you have a new one: (1) Everybody’s a lying scumbug (2) Therefore blacks are all lying scumbags \*\*\*So why don’t you just shut the fuck up, you lying criminal racist scumbag. \*\*\* 😃 ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2235 "2015-04-30T05:14:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s OK for them to injure and kill people if necessary as part of an arrest, or in self defence. > > Don’t resist arrest. Don’t run away. Don’t threaten or attack the police. Do as you’re told, and challenge it later. Or, be an idiot, and get what you’ve asked for. Or be black. In a number of these cases, the “suspect” _did_ comply with direction, but the officers escalated the situation (the exact opposite of what they should have been doing) by shouting that the suspect was fighting, resisting, going for their gun (refer to the links in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18326169&postcount=2116)). Your advice does not seem to be useful, because if the police feel inclined to beat you up or shoot you, they will find a way. And it is kind of difficult to imagine that this has suddenly started happening. We are seeing more of it because of cameras on phones and because of the internet. There is no valid reason to assume that this has not been going on all this time, for decades, centuries, but the police have been lying about it all this time. The video footage we have been seeing just shows that lying is part of policework, an addiction they cannot break. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2236 "2015-04-30T05:16:51Z")
STOP EVERYTHING, anti-police brutality protestors, BREAKING NEWS: Freddy Grey _ **BROKE HIS OWN NECK** _: > **[Prisoner in van heard “banging against walls.”](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/prisoner-in-van-said-freddie-gray-was-banging-against-the-walls-during-ride/2015/04/29/56d7da10-eec6-11e4-8666-a1d756d0218e_story.html)** > > According to a police document obtained by The Post, a prisoner in a separate compartment of the same Baltimore police van as Freddie Gray spoke to officers after the ride. As you can imagine, Fox News is ALL over this. I can see how this could happen, after all I have a buddy in college who committed suicide by placing a shotgun at the back of his head. Everyone back in your homes, nothing to see here . . . . . . . ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2237 "2015-04-30T05:28:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Benji Hart: Baltimore’s violent protesters are right: Smashing police cars is a legitimate political strategy.](http://www.salon.com/2015/04/28/baltimores_violent_protesters_are_right_smashing_police_cars_is_a_legitimate_political_strategy/) Benji Hart is a pompous gasbag and radical egotist. His advocacy of violence is pathetic posturing and should not be taken seriously: the tell is that he invokes no examples. Try Ta-Nehisi Coates. > [@madmonk28](#): > > It’s sad to say, but Hart does have a point: prior to the riot, there had been a week of peaceful protests and hardly any coverage. Once buildings burned, then the networks showed up. Ok, now we have riots and TV coverage. So what? Seriously, nothing good will come out of this. Recall that Nixon and Reagan were elected during the height of the hippie moron period. > [@madmonk28](#): > > Maybe, I don’t know. But I do know that America has a tradition of responding to perceived oppression with violence and rioting. I guess if a person sees the Boston Tea Party as justified, then he, or she might have to view Baltimore similarly. Peaceful protest hasn’t been getting attention to what is a real problem, but rioting did. > > My preference would be for the US to take the concerns of black communities who say they are treated poorly by the police seriously and not just assume they are all a bunch of career criminal whiners who got what they had coming. Since we don’t seem willing to do that, I guess we’ll have to accept riots as a consequence. Consequence? Ok, whatever. Doesn’t make it right _or effective._ > [@madmonk28](#): > > All I know is that I grew up in Virginia where there are plenty of statues of violent men who killed lots of people to protect their rights to own other people. We teach kids that the resistance of the colonists to the British was noble, even though there were plenty of examples of violence and the destruction of property (resistance to the stamp act often involved destroying property, for example). Maybe someday, we’ll be teaching kids about how the brave freedom fighters of Baltimore changed America for the better. I bloody doubt it. Here’s the bright line between the two actions. > [@Thomas Jefferson](#): > > Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations… They had an election in Ferguson and a few reformers go in. But turnout wasn’t overwhelming. MfM sez, _Try the ballot box before you start throwing Malotovs m’kay?_ > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You haven’t established this, and bullshit like jaywalking is irrelevant to this discussion. Steophan is saying that those who jaywalk and commit other petty crimes are accurately characterized as a criminal for the purposes of this discussion. It’s a bullshit argument but English isn’t his first language. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2238 "2015-04-30T11:28:31Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Well white people are certainly happy to lie about injustice - just witness the occupy movement bullshit, or the tea party on the other side. Why would you believe black people are more honest? Neither the Occupy nor the Tea Party movements represent even close to a majority of white people. But the [vast majority of black Americans](http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/on-racial-issues-america-is-divided-both-black-and-white-and-red-and-blue/2014/12/26/3d2964c8-8d12-11e4-a085-34e9b9f09a58_story.html) do indeed assert that the police and the criminal justice system treat black people unfairly. I trust most black people. Most black people were right about American injustice in 1850, most were right in 1900, most were right in 1950, and I believe most are right today. > [@](#): > > In short, pretty much everyone is at heart a lying scumbag who will do what they can get away with, and we need the police and government to stop people getting away with stuff. My cite - the whole of human history. Have fun with your argument against the zero people advocating for no police and no government. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2239 "2015-04-30T11:38:35Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > …Ok, now we have riots and TV coverage. So what? Seriously, nothing good will come out of this. Recall that Nixon and Reagan were elected during the height of the hippie moron period… I think it’s likely a lot of good will come from the rioting. There will almost certainly be reform of the police in Baltimore; and there is also probably going to be a federal investigation into their practices. All of that is because the rioting got America’s attention in the way the peaceful protesting didn’t. Again, my preference is that we don’t wait until there is violence until there is reform, but this is America; we have a long tradition of violent resistance. In fact, if you’re white traitor who took up arms against the US, they’ll name a school after you in some parts of this country. Rioting helped in Ferguson and it helped in Baltimore. It’d be great if we now took the problem seriously without the violence, but we still have a sizeable portion of our society writing off the blacks as being irrational savages getting worked up by outside agitators who have no real complaint against the police. As long as we let such hateful bigots drive our public policy, we’ll have to get used to violent resistance. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2240 "2015-04-30T12:14:43Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > \*\*\*So why don’t you just shut the fuck up, you lying criminal racist scumbag. \*\*\* 😃 I’m not racist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=111) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=113)