# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 114
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2261 "2015-04-30T17:09:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > 47% is not a majority, and it’s not even close to the [cited majorities](http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/on-racial-issues-america-is-divided-both-black-and-white-and-red-and-blue/2014/12/26/3d2964c8-8d12-11e4-a085-34e9b9f09a58_story.html) of black people (80-90%) who believe that black people are not treated fairly by law enforcement and the criminal justice system. Not to nitpick or be divisive, cuz I think the criminal justice system, as a whole, is not equal to all. However I do not necessraily see it along racial lines, but socioeconomic lines. I say that as a white man who grew up in very poor neighborhoods, living as a very poor kid, and all of my very poor friends of various ethnicities every day, and having a similar experience as my friends. We were all treated differently than say in the more affluent suburbs regardless of race. When I was with my Latino friends or my black friends the police treated us all the same. It was not necessarily good or fair treatment, but they didn’t isolate me and say, “On your way, white boy. We got some minorities to rough up.” Your cite mentions perception of all black people to be 8-9 out of 10 and 4 of 10 for all whites that the criminal justice system is unequal in its treatment of minorities. It then goes further to break down the white folks along “partisan” lines. 7 in 10 white Democrats believing the system to be unequal (closer to the view of all black people) and 2 of 10 Republicans (closer to all white people). Did I miss the breakout of the partisan affiliation of the black folks, or was it not mentioned? Would the Alan Keyes of the world be more aligned with their affiliated race or their partisan beliefs? Just wondering, for my viewpoint… ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2262 "2015-04-30T18:41:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s kind of amazing that someone can actually believe that not only are there _no unknowing racists_ on earth, but there never have been and can’t possibly be. Of course people know whether they’re being racist. They just disagree with you and the others who consider _everything_ bad that happens to a black person to be racism. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2263 "2015-04-30T18:52:04Z")
[A useful development](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-aclu-app-police-video-20150430-story.html): > [@](#): > > Californians who use their cellphones to record police encounters with the public on video will be able to automatically transmit the video directly to their local chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union using a smartphone application launched Thursday. > > By using the Mobile Justice CA app to send recordings to the ACLU, leaders of the organization said, people can ensure that video of potential police misconduct is preserved, even if their cellphone is tampered with or destroyed… > > Similar apps have been rolled out by ACLU chapters in other states, including New York, Oregon and Missouri… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2264 "2015-04-30T18:54:37Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Of course people know whether they’re being racist. I can’t believe that you actually think this is true in all cases. I’ve personally known people who stated that black people were inferior both mentally and morally, and _didn’t believe that these assertions were racist_. > [@](#): > > They just disagree with you and the others who consider _everything_ bad that happens to a black person to be racism. So they disagree with your straw man, then. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2265 "2015-04-30T20:10:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I can’t believe that you actually think this is true in all cases. I’ve personally known people who stated that black people were inferior both mentally and morally, and _didn’t believe that these assertions were racist_. So, they know exactly what they were stating but disagree with you that it’s racist, then? That’s _exactly what I said_. That’s not accidental or unintentional racism, their statement was deliberate and intentional. Your claim is that people can actively discriminate against people based on the colour of their skin without knowing they’re doing it. That’s bullshit. Thinking that such discrimination is acceptable doesn’t make it accidental. Seriously, do you even think about what you post _at all_? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2266 "2015-04-30T20:20:15Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Police are workers too. > > The policeman is not the enemy of the worker, he’s the worker’s ally against the criminal. Criminals are workers too. It makes more sense than what you said. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2267 "2015-04-30T21:12:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’d _love_ to see you pitch that line to someone who lost their home, business, livelihood, job, or all of the above Having [cheered](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=700029) the loss of a business via lawlessness, you have no standing to level such criticism at anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2268 "2015-04-30T22:27:40Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Your claim is that people can actively discriminate against people based on the colour of their skin without knowing they’re doing it. When the hell did I say “actively”? And you said that people _can’t not know_ that they’re racist. > [@](#): > > That’s bullshit. Thinking that such discrimination is acceptable doesn’t make it accidental. What about store owners who unknowingly react differently to black patrons? What about cops who are unconsciously more nervous around black people? What about teachers who are unconsciously less tolerant of misbehavior by black pupils? Do you really think this is impossible? > [@](#): > > Seriously, do you even think about what you post _at all_? Very weak. You asserted, ridiculously, that it’s impossible to be unconsciously racist. Remember how this part started? You said “I’m not racist”. I said that doesn’t tell us anything, since many racists don’t think they’re racist. You stated that _that was impossible_ – truly ridiculous. I cited scholarly articles, which you ignored, discussing the very real and significant existence of unconscious racism. Do you really, honestly believe that _no racist on earth_ thinks that they’re not racist? That’s what you said, but I tend to think that you didn’t think about what you posted _at all_. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2269 "2015-04-30T22:54:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > When the hell did I say “actively”? When you said people could be unknowingly racist. Racism is an action, it’s not passive. We’ve had this discussion in the past. > [@](#): > > What about store owners who unknowingly react differently to black patrons? What about cops who are unconsciously more nervous around black people? What about teachers who are unconsciously less tolerant of misbehavior by black pupils? Do you really think this is impossible? Only the last of those three is relevant, and no, one can’t accidentally give one person a mild talking to and the other a suspension without realising it. > [@](#): > > Do you really, honestly believe that _no racist on earth_ thinks that they’re not racist? That’s what you said, but I tend to think that you didn’t think about what you posted _at all_. Yes, obviously. How on earth can someone make a choice to discriminate against someone without knowing it? You can’t accidentally choose to only employ white people, or accidentally only stop and search black people. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2270 "2015-04-30T23:01:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > When you said people could be unknowingly racist. Racism is an action, it’s not passive. We’ve had this discussion in the past. We’ve had this discussion, and you’ve been wrong. In the English language, “racism” and “racist” can refer to actions, beliefs, statements, people, and more. Not just actions. > [@](#): > > Only the last of those three is relevant, All three are relevant. > [@](#): > > and no, one can’t accidentally give one person a mild talking to and the other a suspension without realising it. Are you an alien or something? Have you really never heard of a mother who unconsciously favors one child? A teacher who unconsciously favors one pupil? You really are unable to understand that a teacher might unconsciously treat black students differently than white students? > [@](#): > > Yes, obviously. How on earth can someone make a choice to discriminate against someone without knowing it? You can’t accidentally choose to only employ white people, or accidentally only stop and search black people. You can unconsciously assume that a black applicant is less qualified, or less likable, or less of a team player, or whatever, because they’re black. You can unconsciously assume that a black pupil is more of a troublemaker because they’re black. You can unconsciously believe a black driver is less cooperative because they’re black. Human beings are very capable of self-deception. It really is possible to have biases that one is not aware of. Do you really, honestly think that _everyone on earth_ is aware of all of their biases? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2271 "2015-04-30T23:02:58Z")
Mind-boggling stuff from **Steophan**. Unconscious racism is impossible. All racists know that they’re racist (even the ones, apparently, who say “I’m not racist”, I guess, however that works). Weird, wild stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2272 "2015-04-30T23:12:45Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, obviously. How on earth can someone make a choice to discriminate against someone without knowing it? You can’t accidentally choose to only employ white people, or accidentally only stop and search black people. No, but even without being caricaturally, KKK niggerniggernigger racist, there’s a whole bunch of things, great and small, that unconscious prejudice drive us to do or think or believe about persons or groups of people, whether we acknowledge it or not. [Scientifically proven](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/between-the-lines/201204/studies-unconscious-bias-racism-not-always-racists). Or, hell, just Google “unconscious racism” or “unconscious bias”. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2273 "2015-04-30T23:28:08Z")
Refusing to hire someone because you don’t think they’ll be a team player isn’t racism. Refusing to hire them because they’re black is. Expanding the word “racism” to cover any slight to someone who happens to be black is fucking stupid, and counterproductive if you want to actually prevent racism. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2274 "2015-04-30T23:31:29Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Refusing to hire someone because you don’t think they’ll be a team player isn’t racism. It is if you think that being black means you’re less of a team player, or less intelligent, or less skilled, etc. It really is possible for someone to unconsciously apply negative characteristics to black people. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2275 "2015-05-01T00:00:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Criminals are workers too. > > It makes more sense than what you said. This is almost as stupid as the time you claimed that there was nothing “extremist” about claiming Jews were the descendants of apes and pigs and argue for suicide bombing targeting Bar Mitzvahs. Obviously some criminals have jobs, but most don’t, unless one broadens the definition of the word to be meaningless. Anyway, hush now and go sit in the back. The adults are talking now. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2276 "2015-05-01T00:03:14Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > No, but even without being caricaturally, KKK niggerniggernigger racist, there’s a whole bunch of things, great and small, that unconscious prejudice drive us to do or think or believe about persons or groups of people, whether we acknowledge it or not. [Scientifically proven](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/between-the-lines/201204/studies-unconscious-bias-racism-not-always-racists). Or, hell, just Google “unconscious racism” or “unconscious bias”. I’m guessing his only experience with black people is those he sees on TV. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2277 "2015-05-01T00:15:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Mind-boggling stuff from **Steophan**. Unconscious racism is impossible. All racists know that they’re racist (even the ones, apparently, who say “I’m not racist”, I guess, however that works). Weird, wild stuff. At the Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles, they have a Racism display. To get to the display, you have to choose a door. There are two doors, one for Prejudiced and one for Not Prejudiced. The Not Prejudiced door doesn’t open. The point was that _unconscious_ prejudice was pretty much the norm. ---
**Author:** ![cutman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@cutman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cutman74)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2278 "2015-05-01T02:56:48Z")
A few posts back, someone mentioned that everyone broke the law at one time or another. If this is so, then it stands to reason that if a black man is five times more likely to be stopped by police(Ferguson, MO), then the crime rate among blacks would be consequentially higher. This pretty much puts to rest the idea that statistics prove that black people are more likely to commit crimes. The only thing it proves is that that black people are more likely to be prosecuted for said crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2279 "2015-05-01T07:28:18Z")
Kevin Drum: 1. [INDENT]When Freddie Gray was\* 22 months old\*, he had a tested blood lead level of 37 micrograms per deciliter. This is an absolutely astronomical amount. Freddie never even had the slightest chance of growing up normally. Lead poisoning doomed him from the start to a life of heightened aggression, poor learning abilities, and weak impulse control. His life was a tragedy set in motion the day he was born. [/INDENT] 2. [INDENT] It’s this: thanks both to lead paint and leaded gasoline, there were lots of teenagers like Freddie Gray in the 90s. This created a huge and genuinely scary wave of violent crime, and in response we turned many of our urban police forces into occupying armies. … But here’s the thing: _that era is over_. Individual tragedies like Freddie Gray are still too common, but overall lead poisoning has plummeted. As a result, our cities are safer _because our kids are fundamentally less dangerous_. To a large extent, they are now normal teenagers, not lead-poisoned predators. [/INDENT] Emphasis in original. Chart in original showing decline in crime. > **[Freddie Gray and the real lesson of urban policing](https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/04/freddie-gray-and-real-lesson-urban-policing/)** > > The Washington Post features a simple headline today that encompasses decades of personal tragedy and public policy disaster: Freddie Gray’s life a study in the sad effects of lead paint on poor blacks When Freddie Gray was 22 months old, he had a... The militarization of our nation’s police forces, three strikes you’re out, etc may or may not have been the best response to our nation’s lead poisoned underclass. Regardless, the underlying situation has shifted: crime has declined for 2 decades now, even during the worst downturn since world war II. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2280 "2015-05-01T12:12:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m guessing his only experience with black people is those he sees on TV. This is patently false; **Steophan** has many, many black friends, both online and in real life. We know this because if he didn’t, it would mean he made a conscious choice not to befriend any black people, and he has taken great pains to impress upon us that he is not a racist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=113) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=115)