# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 117
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2321 "2015-05-01T17:26:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > At this point, it should be obvious to anyone with the slightest iota of a self preservation instinct that not treating the police with the same respect one would a mama grizzly is not going to end well for you. So you are comparing police officers, employees of the government entrusted with serving the public, to wild animals that must be treated with the utmost caution and fear? I don’t have grizzly bears wandering through my neighborhood, but I do have police. I should assume that a police officer is as rational and dangerous as a wild grizzly bear and I shoud behave accordingly. And you don’t see a problem with that? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2322 "2015-05-01T17:28:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The moment he fled, they had cause. You keep saying this. It’s false. “Cause” (as in “probable cause”) is a legal term and you’re using it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![regginbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ba9def/32.png) [@regginbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/regginbrow)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2323 "2015-05-01T17:29:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The moment he fled, they had cause. No they did not. They had reasonable suspicion to perform a body search once he fled. However, since the search turned up no weapons illegal to possess, the police had no probable cause for arrest. This has already been explained to you though, so I’m not holding out hope this time will stick. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2324 "2015-05-01T17:29:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And what is your evidence that they’re lying? I don’t know if they’re lying. The trial should help us find out. > [@](#): > > What do you propose happened instead - that the police noticed a black man standing around minding his own business and proclaimed “Yee hah, open season!” before proceeding to beat him to death for funsies? I don’t know – there are a million possibilities. Hopefully the trial will help us find out. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2325 "2015-05-01T17:34:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And what is your evidence that they’re lying? What do you propose happened instead - that the police noticed a black man standing around minding his own business and proclaimed “Yee hah, open season!” before proceeding to beat him to death for funsies? What’s your explanation for how he died? He got arrested after not having committed a crime, got thrown in the back of a van and then thought “as long as I’m here, I might as well break my neck against the side of the van?” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2326 "2015-05-01T17:51:03Z")
> [@bashere](#): > > They had no probable cause. Therefore, the minute they pursued, the police were breaking the law. [Wrong.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_v._Wardlow) In order to pursue, they don’t have to have “probable cause”. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2327 "2015-05-01T17:52:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t know if they’re lying. The trial should help us find out. > > I don’t know – there are a million possibilities. Hopefully the trial will help us find out. So you don’t know what happened, but you’re sure it was illegal. If the trial finds them not guilty on all counts, will you be satisfied with that? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2328 "2015-05-01T17:53:29Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > What’s your explanation for how he died? He got arrested after not having committed a crime, got thrown in the back of a van and then thought “as long as I’m here, I might as well break my neck against the side of the van?” He wasn’t buckled in because he chose not to let them buckle him in and he got the back of his neck smashed because of it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2329 "2015-05-01T18:01:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So you don’t know what happened, but you’re sure it was illegal. When did I say that? Why do you constantly make shit up? It’s like a tic with you. You can’t even control it, apparently. > [@](#): > > If the trial finds them not guilty on all counts, will you be satisfied with that? It depends on the nature of the evidence presented. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2330 "2015-05-01T18:17:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If he hadn’t run, he’d be alive today. His death was basically a form of assisted suicide. And you reach this conclusion based on what? You know this … how? 🙂 I submit that one must accept that your position isn’t a matter of ignorance (not even willful ignorance), but (in part) stupidity. And because one cannot fix stupid… ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2331 "2015-05-01T18:17:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He wasn’t buckled in because he chose not to let them buckle him in and he got the back of his neck smashed because of it. What is your evidence for that? And why was he arrested in the first place? Even if he ran, he had not committed a crime. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2332 "2015-05-01T18:24:17Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > What is your evidence for that? And why was he arrested in the first place? Even if he ran, he had not committed a crime. He wasn’t arrested, he was kidnapped. [QUOTE=The state’s attorney for Baltimore, Marilyn J. Mosby] Ms. Mosby faulted the officers’ conduct almost from the minute the police first came into contact with Mr. Gray, not just on the van ride. The officers who arrested him had no probable cause to do so, she said, describing the arrest as illegal. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2333 "2015-05-01T18:29:23Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > He wasn’t arrested, he was kidnapped. He (also) wasn’t kidnapped. There was no probable cause (reasonable articulable suspicion) to believe he’d committed a crime when deciding to run after him. (Rather unfortunately, a fuckton of police are terribly ignorant, and ignore proper procedure even when they know what proper procedure is. Quite often, the police will make something up; under the circumstances, all they could do was lamely refer to the allegedly unlawful knife that they found in his pocket after unlawfully detaining him.) Making eye contact and then running are both lawful acts. A person is free to decide (s)he doesn’t want to be anywhere near police (even if it turns out one is carrying an unlawful weapon, to be discovered only upon unlawful detention); one is free to give into the fight or flight instinct. One is also free to resist unlawful arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2334 "2015-05-01T18:35:43Z")
> [@Fallen](#): > > He (also) wasn’t kidnapped. There was no probable cause (reasonable articulable suspicion) to believe he’d committed a crime when deciding to run after him. (Rather unfortunately, a fuckton of police are terribly ignorant, and ignore proper procedure even when they know what proper procedure is. Quite often, the police will make something up; under the circumstances, all they could do was lamely refer to the allegedly unlawful knife that they found in his pocket after unlawfully detaining him.) Making eye contact and then running are both lawful acts. A person is free to decide (s)he doesn’t want to be anywhere near police (even if it turns out one is carrying an unlawful weapon, to be discovered only upon unlawful detention); one is free to give into the fight or flight instinct. One is also free to resist unlawful arrest. Wrong. I [cited the relevant Supreme Court decision](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_v._Wardlow) already. Running after him was fully legal and justified. ---
**Author:** ![Hooleehootoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eada6e/32.png) [@Hooleehootoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hooleehootoo)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2335 "2015-05-01T18:37:46Z")
Running away is not probable cause, but this issue is entirely beside the point. Even if the police had witnessed a heroin sale that lead to a chase, it would be intolerable if they drove in a negligent way that caused F.G.'s death. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2336 "2015-05-01T18:39:31Z")
I could see a nationwide protest where people go up to policemen, look them in the eye and run away. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2337 "2015-05-01T18:53:04Z")
For some reason I’m reminded of Full Metal Jacket: “Anyone who runs, is a VC. Anyone who stands still, is a well-disciplined VC!” ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2338 "2015-05-01T19:03:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong. I [cited the relevant Supreme Court decision](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_v._Wardlow) already. Running after him was fully legal and justified. If you know much about the law, you’ll understand that it is super nitpicky, and how states will apply it is up to them (if someone disagrees with the state’s position, naturally, they’re free to attempt to address). “[S]uggestive of wrongdoing” does not equal probable cause to suspect a crime has been committed. (Here, the cops would’ve been better doing the usual but telling a better lie rather than pointing to the allegedly unlawful knife that was found AFTER tackling (vs. he made eye contact and immediately turned around and ran, they might have said "we saw ‘x’ in his pants such that screamed it could \*only \*be (in their experience) an ‘unlawful’ weapon). Or they could’ve said they saw a baggie in his hands or other bulge in his pants that indicated X to them (in their experience) and that, in combination with his turning around and running, is what led to the decision to run him down and tackle his ass. State local government is still free to dictate procedure to the police and what is and is \*\*not \*\*probable cause to proceed to do X (in this case, to run after and tackle someone). Ms. Mosby was not talking out of her ass when she indicated that the police did not have probable cause to run after the guy for turning around and running in the other direction. (And this presumes the kid in fact was engaged in “headlong [rash, impetuous] flight” v. wanting to avoid being rousted. So far, I’ve only seen in detail how story was told by/characterized by police.) If you want recommended reading in terms of case law in Maryland, let me know. ---
**Author:** ![OwnRules](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@OwnRules](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OwnRules)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2339 "2015-05-01T19:06:50Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I could see a nationwide protest where people go up to policemen, look them in the eye and run away. Could become quite popular: Watch Americans (and perhaps some illegals) run from the Cops! Ten times the excitement of The Running of the Bulls! Cops, much better chasers than bulls! **“American Roulette, will they live or die?”** Saturdays nights live from 9:00 to 11:00 on NBC – sponsored by **Bwin** , your best on-line bet! Coming soon to a city near you! Disclaimer: should this program run afoul of US laws for reasons unbeknown to us, we will try again with GITMO detainees! ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2340 "2015-05-01T19:08:20Z")
> [@Fallen](#): > > If you know much about the law, you’ll understand that it is super nitpicky, and how states will apply it is up to them (if someone disagrees with the state’s position, naturally, they’re free to attempt to address). “[S]uggestive of wrongdoing” does not equal probable cause to suspect a crime has been committed. The case was not about probable cause. You don’t need probable cause to run after the guy. You need reasonable suspicion. That’s what the court ruled on. You claimed that Gray was unlawfully detained after he ran. The case I cited shows that he was, in fact, lawfully detained. The arrest may have been unlawful if the cops did not have probable cause for it. But the initial running after him and detention was lawful. > [@](#): > > Ms. Mosby was not talking out of her ass when she indicated that the police did not have probable cause to run after the guy for turning around and running in the other direction. AFAIK Ms. Mosby said no such thing. Can you give a cite? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=116) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=118)