# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 125
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2481 "2015-05-06T18:46:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If the investigating police task force was an objective fact-finder, sure. But I don’t see how anyone can be ready to conclude that at this point. Maybe they were, or maybe they’re just an arm of the blue wall. Maybe. But the benefit of that doubt goes to the people who are charged. The state will need to prove that they didn’t have probable cause to arrest, not the other way round, and it looks like they’ll struggle. Which doesn’t affect what happened _after_ he was arrested, which seems to be the more significant part of the issue, and it looks to me that proving recklessness at least, for at least some of the officers, could well be possible. Anything more, I’m not sure how it could be proved. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2482 "2015-05-06T18:50:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Whether it is a fact or not is irrelevant. Whether thinking that it was a fact is reasonable is. > > Let’s put it another way. Let’s say that the officers, instead of a knife, found a bag of white powder on Gray. Let’s say they arrest him, and later it is found that the bag was of some legal substance. Was there probable cause for arrest? No. Let’s just say they found what they found-a pocket knife. If it was a pocket knife with an illegally long blade, they would have said so, so we know it wasn’t. If it was an actual switchblade they would have said so, so we know it wasn’t. It was a pocket knife. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2483 "2015-05-06T18:52:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Whether it is a fact or not is irrelevant. Whether thinking that it was a fact is reasonable is. Yes, but so what? If they’re an ‘arm of the blue wall’, then what they think has no bearing on what’s reasonable. If their goal was to exonerate their fellow cops, then their ‘findings’ provide no useful information (e.g. they’d say the knife was illegal no matter what the actual details of the knife’s construction and operation are). If their goal was to find the truth, then maybe it does. I imagine we’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2484 "2015-05-06T18:54:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Maybe. But the benefit of that doubt goes to the people who are charged. The state will need to prove that they didn’t have probable cause to arrest, not the other way round, and it looks like they’ll struggle. We’ll see. It probably depends on the knife, and the actual facts about the knife (like pictures and/or an accurate and detailed description) aren’t in the public sphere right now. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2485 "2015-05-06T18:55:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No. Let’s just say they found what they found-a pocket knife. If it was a pocket knife with an illegally long blade, they would have said so, so we know it wasn’t. If it was an actual switchblade they would have said so, so we know it wasn’t. It was a pocket knife. With a spring-assisted blade, which is illegal according to Baltimore city code. Or, if you prefer, could be reasonably assumed to be illegal according to Baltimore city code. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2486 "2015-05-06T19:00:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If they’re an ‘arm of the blue wall’ Which there is absolutely no evidence for except in your imagination. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2487 "2015-05-06T19:08:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Which there is absolutely no evidence for except in your imagination. If that’s what you’re going for, then there’s “absolutely no evidence” that they’re an objective fact-finding force either. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2488 "2015-05-06T19:12:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If that’s what you’re going for, then there’s “absolutely no evidence” that they’re an objective fact-finding force either. Well, besides the article already linked on the same page of this thread which describes the workings of the task force in detail and depicts them as working in meticulous detail to find out what exactly happened. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2489 "2015-05-06T19:14:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Well, besides the article already linked on the same page of this thread which describes the workings of the task force in detail and depicts them as working in meticulous detail to find out what exactly happened. That article is also entirely consistent with the blue wall. It tells us nothing about what actually motivates the task force. The facts about the knife might tell us something, but we don’t have the facts about the knife at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2490 "2015-05-06T19:17:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That article is also entirely consistent with the blue wall. Yes, of course - evidence that disproves your chosen belief just _proves_ that there’s a massive secret effort to cover up The Truth. > [@](#): > > but we don’t have the facts about the knife at this point. So you’re saying the prosecutor was wrong to declare the knife legal, since we don’t have the facts about it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2491 "2015-05-06T19:22:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Well, besides the article already linked on the same page of this thread which describes the workings of the task force in detail and depicts them as working in meticulous detail to find out what exactly happened. Yep, they gave the reporter the five dollar tour…but I bet the stunned looks on their faces when they found out about the separate investigation that involved(horror of horrors!) non-cops, and that their own bros would actually be indicted weren’t part of the scheduled show. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2492 "2015-05-06T19:23:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes, of course - evidence that disproves your chosen belief just _proves_ that there’s a massive secret effort to cover up The Truth. There is no evidence that disproves this, you serial liar. And I haven’t stated any “chosen belief”, liar. Stop lying about what I believe and about what articles say. > [@](#): > > So you’re saying the prosecutor was wrong to declare the knife legal, since we don’t have the facts about it? Nope – I’m saying that I’m unable to evaluate whether the prosecutor (or the defense) is being truthful and/or accurate at this point. God you’re wrong a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2493 "2015-05-06T19:23:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes, of course - evidence that disproves your chosen belief just _proves_ that there’s a massive secret effort to cover up The Truth. > > So you’re saying the prosecutor was wrong to declare the knife legal, since we don’t have the facts about it? That doesn’t means _she_ doesn’t have the facts about it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2494 "2015-05-06T19:39:18Z")
Well, that’s all settled out then! Now, all that remains is the pesky (albeit minor) issue of his being dead. ---
**Author:** ![Hooleehootoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eada6e/32.png) [@Hooleehootoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hooleehootoo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2495 "2015-05-06T19:56:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is, actually, irrelevant to the validity of “probable cause” whether the knife was, in fact, illegal or not. As I cited, “probable cause for arrest exists when facts and circumstances within the police officer’s knowledge would lead a reasonable person to believe that the suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime.”. > > So if it was reasonable for the arresting police officers to believe that the knife was illegal (and it is pretty well demonstrated that it was reasonable, since the investigating police task force also concluded that it was illegal), then the probable cause was valid. As would be shown, quite easily, by the defense attorneys if this ever gets to court (I doubt it will). > > The prosecutor is full of it. I’m willing to accept this analysis and agree that the false imprisonment charges are deficient. So what. The important charge is the murder. Explain how that is reasonable for the arresting officers. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2496 "2015-05-06T19:58:22Z")
> [@Hooleehootoo](#): > > I’m willing to accept this analysis and agree that the false imprisonment charges are deficient. So what. The important charge is the murder. Explain how that is reasonable for the arresting officers. Only one out of the six police officers is charged with murder. And I am pretty sure the prosecutor overcharged that one to get him to plea bargain. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2497 "2015-05-06T20:09:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yep, they gave the reporter the five dollar tour…but I bet the stunned looks on their faces when they found out about the separate investigation that involved(horror of horrors!) non-cops, and that their own bros would actually be indicted weren’t part of the scheduled show. An investigation which was _not_ open to the press, conducted by non-experts, which the prosecutor refuses to share any details about. Yep. That’s a _lot_ more transparent and trustworthy. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2498 "2015-05-06T20:10:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And I haven’t stated any “chosen belief”, liar. Stop lying about what I believe and about what articles say. For such a committed agnostic who refuses to express any beliefs or opinions about anything, you sure are pretty darned emotional about what you don’t know about. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2499 "2015-05-06T20:36:32Z")
Murder? What nonsense! The officers saw that Gray was in severe spinal distress, and applied what emergency chiropractic assistance that they could. It was risky, applying a treatment of slamming his body about inside a police van, but this was an emergency! And no one in Gray’s family has thanked them! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2500 "2015-05-06T20:49:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Murder? What nonsense! The officers saw that Gray was in severe spinal distress, and applied what emergency chiropractic assistance that they could. It was risky, applying a treatment of slamming his body about inside a police van, but this was an emergency! > > And no one in Gray’s family has thanked them! Did the same think happen to you as an attempt to cure an unfortunate brain injury? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=124) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=126)