# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 127
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2521 "2015-05-07T10:27:30Z")
So, if you’re white and own a ranch, you get to point guns at federal agents and all is hunky dory; if you’re black and don’t have a pot to piss in, having a pocket knife clipped to your pants is grounds for death. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2522 "2015-05-07T11:30:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > …So, guilty or not guilty? How could I know that now? If I had to guess, guilty on some charges and not guilty on some. But I’m not certain. Why would anyone be certain? Why would certainty be a good thing? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2523 "2015-05-07T11:32:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Seems to me that that would be a reason to _not_ run - these supposed trigger-happy cops are more likely to notice someone who runs than someone who doesn’t, aren’t they? > > I mean, unless Mr. Gray was of the belief that he could outrun a bullet. Fear does not always lead to the most rational behavior. But it’s very reasonable and rational for some black people to fear the police, based on their experiences. It was reasonable and rational for most black people through most of American history to see police as a dangerous, cruel, and unpredictable enemy, and it’s still reasonable and rational for some black people to see them that way, even if many or most police officers individually aren’t dangerous, cruel, or unpredictable. Through most of American history, all government and all authority were the enemies of black people. It’s only in recent decades that we’ve started to reverse this, but it’s an ongoing process that isn’t yet complete. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2524 "2015-05-07T11:56:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I asked you for some substantiation of an essentially subjective experience, that is, eye contact. Eye contact is legally irrelevant. Flight from police is the justification for the initial detaining. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2525 "2015-05-07T12:25:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Please, explain to me why an honest, law-abiding citizen _ever_ responds to making eye contact with a policeman by turning and fleeing on foot. It amuses me when people who didn’t grow up in a police state say dumb-ass things like this. No, wait, the other thing- saddens, yes, that’s it. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2526 "2015-05-07T13:13:31Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > At this point, the images seem to show more police than citizens, not because the civilians were scattering as much as just the entire Seattle Police force had showed up for the party. This looked a lot like another militaristic display to remind everyone that Washington really is a Police State. Or maybe it has a little something to do with the history of “peaceful” protestors in Washington looting and smashing car windows like they did to me last year. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2527 "2015-05-07T13:15:00Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > With the illegal Practices and well documented violence you would be stupid to stick around until they manufacture probable cause if you happen to be a minority and/or poor. > > How stupid do you have to be to stick around with the hope that the officer is one of the “good ones”. So Gray decided to run instead. How’d that work out for him? If he’d stayed, would he have been double-killed or something? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2528 "2015-05-07T13:28:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So Gray decided to run instead. How’d that work out for him? If he’d stayed, would he have been double-killed or something? At least when he choose to run, he had a chance to survive. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2529 "2015-05-07T13:31:01Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > At least when he choose to run, he had a chance to survive. So what you’re saying is that if Freddie Gray had not run, the cops would _definitely_ have killed him? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2530 "2015-05-07T13:39:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So Gray decided to run instead. How’d that work out for him? If he’d stayed, would he have been double-killed or something? I’m trying to understand the relevance of this. Justification for the cop? “When he ran, I knew he was stupid, so I shot him.” Perhaps instead of Civics (which they won’t need since voting and civil rights are intended for Whites) Blacks should take a class in Submission to Police. There’s much to cover, e.g. [ul][li]Smart Blacks don’t wear baggy clothes or large pockets. Make it obvious to your betters that you don’t have a gun.[/li][li] Keep a set of handcuffs with you. When approached by LEO, cuff yourself so the cop knows he’s not in danger.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2531 "2015-05-07T13:42:38Z")
Gray was killed in the van, not while running, so I don’t know what running has to do with it. Even if the police had legitimate reason to detain Gray (and this is in question), there’s no justification for restraining/positioning/driving in such a way as to break his spine. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2532 "2015-05-07T13:43:36Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I’m trying to understand the relevance of this. Justification for the cop? “When he ran, I knew he was stupid, so I shot him.” He ran upon making eye contact with the police. This was suspicious, because people generally don’t run from the police unless they’re doing or have recently done something illegal, so they pursued him. When they pursued him, they found that he indeed was doing something illegal, i.e. carrying an illegal knife, so they arrested him. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2533 "2015-05-07T13:45:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He ran upon making eye contact with the police. This was suspicious, because people generally don’t run from the police unless they’re doing or have recently done something illegal, so they pursued him. When they pursued him, they found that he indeed was doing something illegal, i.e. carrying an illegal knife, so they arrested him. This is the story the cops tell (and the knife has not been established to have been “illegal”), but I don’t know how anyone can be ready to assume it’s the truth. Except, of course, that **Smapti** is constitutionally incapable of seeing cops as possibly mistaken or lying. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2534 "2015-05-07T13:49:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Except, of course, that **Smapti** is constitutionally incapable of seeing cops as possibly mistaken or lying. The police are sworn servants of the public. Their word is to be preferred by default in the absence of evidence against it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2535 "2015-05-07T14:16:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The police are sworn servants of the public. Their word is to be preferred by default in the absence of evidence against it. Maybe by you, but that doesn’t mean everyone will (or everyone should). ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2536 "2015-05-07T14:32:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The police are sworn servants of the public. Their word is to be preferred by default in the absence of evidence against it. Wow, that’s stupid even by your standards. The invisible intangible unicorn on your shoulder (the existence of which you can cite no evidence against) agrees with me. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2537 "2015-05-07T14:35:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The police are sworn servants of the public. Their word is to be preferred by default in the absence of evidence against it. That seems pretty Pollyannish. My college roommate once said there were three types of cops: 1) the professionals (and hopefully most are these), 2) the assholes (who get off on bullying people and abusing their power), and 3) the losers (who become cops to get power and respect they never would have otherwise). It seems **Smapti** denies the existence of the 2nd and 3rd types. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2538 "2015-05-07T14:50:17Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > That seems pretty Pollyannish. My college roommate once said there were three types of cops: 1) the professionals (and hopefully most are these), 2) the assholes (who get off on bullying people and abusing their power), and 3) the losers (who become cops to get power and respect they never would have otherwise). > > It seems **Smapti** denies the existence of the 2nd and 3rd types. I heard it a bit differently from a retired-cop-friend-of-a-friend – he said 60% of cops just want to do their jobs and go home safe (the ‘professionals’, I suppose), 20% want to be SUPERCOP (they want to be super-hero crime-fighters and have very good, though ambitious, intentions), and 20% are bullies who get off on pushing people around. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2539 "2015-05-07T15:00:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The police are sworn servants of the public. Their word is to be preferred by default in the absence of evidence against it. The same could be said of the President, or members of Congress. Do you view their comments with the same deference? ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2540 "2015-05-07T15:03:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I heard it a bit differently from a retired-cop-friend-of-a-friend – he said 60% of cops just want to do their jobs and go home safe (the ‘professionals’, I suppose), 20% want to be SUPERCOP (they want to be super-hero crime-fighters and have very good, though ambitious, intentions), and 20% are bullies who get off on pushing people around. Maybe we need a Venn diagram, then. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=126) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=128)