# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 129
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2561 "2015-05-08T18:24:11Z")
**Smapti** also believes that if he has knowledge of a bomb on a plane, it’s morally acceptable for him to [not tell the authorities](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17721715#post17721715). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2562 "2015-05-08T18:39:19Z")
Wow, thanks for the info. It’s like parody. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2563 "2015-05-08T18:39:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Wait, what! > > Smapti doesn’t believe in freeing slaves??? > > On what basis does he believe this? I do not believe that slavery should be permitted or that efforts to abolish slavery are illegitimate. What I do believe is that in a democracy one is obligated to obey the law even if one finds it morally distasteful to do so. Democracy cannot function unless the will of the people is respected and adhered to - deciding that your own personal moral compass trumps the law and so you’re going to ignore or actively disobey the laws you don’t like is anathetical to the democratic process. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2564 "2015-05-08T18:40:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I do not believe that slavery should be permitted or that efforts to abolish slavery are illegitimate. > > What I do believe is that in a democracy one is obligated to obey the law even if one finds it morally distasteful to do so. What does democracy have to do with what you said? There was nothing about democracy in the hypothetical in which you refused to assist slaves in freeing themselves at no risk to yourself. In fact, you ‘justified’ your choice by saying that it would be wrong to help those slaves escape because those slaves might be harmed if they escaped – nothing about democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2565 "2015-05-08T18:41:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What I do believe is that in a democracy one is obligated to obey the law even if one finds it morally distasteful to do so. Except for police officers; they can do whatever the fuck they want. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2566 "2015-05-08T18:45:27Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Today we have a video from 2013 finally being released after an ACLU lawsuit showing an officer doing his best place kicker impression. > > [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3072698/Dover-police-officer-charged-assault-video-released.html](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3072698/Dover-police-officer-charged-assault-video-released.html) > > This another non-story, Smapti? He have it coming? Should have complied faster? At least they didn’t taser him for not putting his arms behind his back after being KO’d. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2567 "2015-05-08T18:47:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In fact, you ‘justified’ your choice by saying that it would be wrong to help those slaves escape because those slaves might be harmed if they escaped And I stand by that. If I release a slave and he is later captured and slowly tortured and beaten to death for escaping, then I have committed murder. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2568 "2015-05-08T18:48:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Wow, thanks for the info. > > It’s like parody. Posts like these are why I’ve concluded that he’s either a troll, or has some serious mental issues. If he’s a troll, engaging him is what he wants, but if he has mental health issues, it’s not right to keep engaging him. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2569 "2015-05-08T18:56:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Wow, thanks for the info. > > It’s like parody. The term “fascist” gets thrown around a bit too frequently, but despite his claim to respect democracy, **Smapti** appears to be one of the few remaining actual, genuine, dyed-in-the-wool fascists. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2570 "2015-05-08T19:07:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And I stand by that. So it has nothing to do with democracy then – why did you mention it? > [@](#): > > If I release a slave and he is later captured and slowly tortured and beaten to death for escaping, then I have committed murder. And if you choose to not release a slave, and that slave is raped, tortured, and beaten to death because that’s what the master wants to do, you have not committed murder? If this is your calculation, it’s utterly monstrous, and just continues to confirm what a terrible, horrible neighbor and fellow human being you are (based strictly on your posts). ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2571 "2015-05-08T19:10:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What I do believe is that in a democracy one is obligated to obey the law even if one finds it morally distasteful to do so. Democracy cannot function unless the will of the people is respected and adhered to - deciding that your own personal moral compass trumps the law and so you’re going to ignore or actively disobey the laws you don’t like is anathetical to the democratic process. That makes perfect sense for those that are part of the democratic process. In 1860, the franchise was limited to white men. (Feel free to note exceptions that only marginally affect the rule.) The four million slaves didn’t get to vote on the legitimacy of slavery, nor did women get to vote on either those laws or the laws limiting their legal rights. Also, **our** democracy, at its creation, included something called the **Bill of Rights** , which encapsulates the notion that we have some basic rights that can’t be legislated away. Again, Negro slaves were excluded from those rights, without any ‘democratic’ say in the matter. It was democracy _for us other folks_, but not for them. Why should they have been expected, let alone required, to respect the democratic will of a bunch of other people, just because it was decided democratically among that other group? “Hey, we white folks all voted, and the outcome was that you black folks are still slaves. But it was all democratic. So shaddup and keep pickin’ cotton.” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2572 "2015-05-08T19:11:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So it has nothing to do with democracy then – why did you mention it? Because sometimes, in the real world, there’s more than one reason why a given action is the right one. > [@](#): > > And if you choose to not release a slave, and that slave is raped, tortured, and beaten to death because that’s what the master wants to do, you have not committed murder? No, because I never became part of the scenario, and nothing happens that would not have happened if I didn’t exist. > [@](#): > > If this is your calculation, it’s utterly monstrous, and just continues to confirm what a terrible, horrible neighbor and fellow human being you are (based strictly on your posts). Who would you rather live next door to - me, or Freddie Gray? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2573 "2015-05-08T19:16:51Z")
Some straight lines are just too easy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2574 "2015-05-08T19:17:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because sometimes, in the real world, there’s more than one reason why a given action is the right one. This is not one, since my hypothetical said nothing about democracy (and in fact, strongly implied that whatever government was present was anything but democratic). Not that obeying a democratic law that allows slavery is morally acceptable. > [@](#): > > No, because I never became part of the scenario, and nothing happens that would not have happened if I didn’t exist. You became “part of the scenario” as soon as you gained the knowledge that you could help and chose not to. If you pass by a wounded child and do nothing to help, _you are part of the scenario and failed as a human_. Your choices are unconscionably bad. I can’t imagine how you can even live with yourself knowing that you believe inaction is an acceptable response to these scenarios. > [@](#): > > Who would you rather live next door to - me, or Freddie Gray? Definitely Gray. It’s a cinch. You would walk right by my child if they were hurt. You would say nothing if you knew of a bomb on a plane nearby. You would turn me in if the government was looking for Jews. You’re a monstrous and terrible person, based on what you’ve posted. Much, much worse than a petty criminal (if Gray was indeed a petty criminal). And much, much more dangerous to your neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2575 "2015-05-08T19:20:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Who would you rather live next door to - me, or Freddie Gray? You aren’t here for the hunting, are you? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2576 "2015-05-08T19:20:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You became “part of the scenario” as soon as you gained the knowledge that you could help and chose not to. If you pass by a wounded child and do nothing to help, _you are part of the scenario and failed as a human_. You are, no doubt, aware of the things happening to women in Nigeria and Iraq under the control of Islamist militias. Have you “failed as a human” because you could help and choose not to? How do you even sleep at night with as much guilt as you must be facing? > [@](#): > > Definitely Gray. It’s a cinch. You would walk right by my child if they were hurt. You would say nothing if you knew of a bomb on a plane nearby. Whereas he’d just steal your car or shoot you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2577 "2015-05-08T19:23:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You are, no doubt, aware of the things happening to women in Nigeria and Iraq under the control of Islamist militias. Are you “part of the scenario” because you could help and choose not to? How do you even sleep at night with as much guilt as you must be facing? I help as much as I can while balancing my responsibilities to others. But sometimes I can do more to help them and others, and I feel guilty when I miss the opportunity. But nice try justifying fucking _doing nothing while walking past an injured child_. > [@](#): > > Whereas he’d just steal your car or shoot you. I’m unaware of Gray having a history of gun violence or car theft. But even if he did, either would be preferable to fucking _doing nothing while walking past my hurt child_. Disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2578 "2015-05-08T19:25:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But nice try justifying fucking _doing nothing while walking past an injured child_. I never said I wouldn’t. I said I wouldn’t be _obligated_ to. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2579 "2015-05-08T19:27:04Z")
You would be obligated to. That’s part of your obligation as a human being. I sincerely hope that, as cowardly and morally bankrupt as you are, **Smapti** , you wouldn’t actually walk right past an injured child in real life without stopping to help. I hope that you’re just trying to make some sort of indecipherable philosophical point with this one. If you aren’t “obligated to”, then, why would you do it? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2580 "2015-05-08T19:36:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you aren’t “obligated to”, then, why would you do it? Because I wanted to? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=128) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=130)