# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 138
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2741 "2015-05-21T17:37:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Loyal citizens will be relieved to hear that the vicious thug Tamir Rice would have faced charges for “aggravated menacing” and “inducing panic.” And how does brandishing a weapon in a city park adjacent to a school not meet that definition? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2742 "2015-05-21T18:46:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It’s not illegal. What it is is highly suspicious. Is this reason enough for the government to take it in your mind? Suspicion? Is there any way to quatify how much suspicion is needed? Is it more suspicious that he is black? > [@Smapti](#): > > Why not put it in a bank account? Because you’ve acquired the money illegally and you don’t want the government to know about it. [According to Pew, about 7% of the adult populace does not have a bank account, mostly the working poor.](http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/archived-projects/safe-banking-opportunities) By my count, this is more than 15 million people. Do you think they are all guilty, or just suspicious? About 10% of them (about 1.5 million people) cannot get a bank account due to poor credit. Another 30% of them choose to not have bank accounts because all the fees and hidden costs our banks love to put on poor people. You don’t need me to cite this, do you? > [@Smapti](#): > > Why not fly when flying is cheaper and faster? Because then your bags would be searched. It’s cheaper? Are you sure about this? I can find a one way ticket on Amtrak from Detroit to LA for $200, while the cheapest fair on United is $270. And I have never had anybody search my bags when I fly. I fly almost every month but I must have missed this! Do you mean the x-ray going through security? A question for you Smapti: if we could go back in time and rewrite the Constitution, would you want to remove the protections on searches, seizures, quartering of troops, presumption of innocence, trial by a jury of peers, etc…? Do you think these protections that the founders put in our government and laws get in the way of effective governance? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2743 "2015-05-21T18:52:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Frankly, I’d expect a little more professionalism on the part of those dealing with the mentally ill. You don’t think that torturing people to death or starving people is professional? I have it on the best authority that they were very professional in their demeanor when carrying out these duties… Or did you mean something different? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2744 "2015-05-21T19:17:14Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > Is this reason enough for the government to take it in your mind? Suspicion? Is there any way to quatify how much suspicion is needed? Yes - the judicial process for civil asset forfeiture. > [@](#): > > Is it more suspicious that he is black? No. > [@](#): > > [According to Pew, about 7% of the adult populace does not have a bank account, mostly the working poor.](http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/archived-projects/safe-banking-opportunities) By my count, this is more than 15 million people. Do you think they are all guilty, or just suspicious? Just the “working poor” who are transporting $16,000 across state lines via train. > [@](#): > > It’s cheaper? Are you sure about this? I can find a one way ticket on Amtrak from Detroit to LA for $200, while the cheapest fair on United is $270. A quick check of Expedia found one on Spirit for $158. > [@](#): > > And I have never had anybody search my bags when I fly. I have. > [@](#): > > A question for you Smapti: if we could go back in time and rewrite the Constitution, would you want to remove the protections on searches, seizures, quartering of troops, presumption of innocence, trial by a jury of peers, etc…? Do you think these protections that the founders put in our government and laws get in the way of effective governance? To the extent that they are abused by criminals in order to avoid justice, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2745 "2015-05-21T20:05:25Z")
Smapti, watch this [vid](https://youtu.be/RQavIsV3sDs?list=PLQ9B-p5Q-YOP6tC-AcrdvMuxRRWjUB-et), and the vids on the accompanying list. [Bad Cops: Get Ready for your Close Up! • BRAVE NEW FILMS & Blue Scholars (Oskar Barnack MUSIC VIDEO) - YouTube](https://youtu.be/RQavIsV3sDs?list=PLQ9B-p5Q-YOP6tC-AcrdvMuxRRWjUB-et) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2746 "2015-05-21T20:08:24Z")
Well, you will be pleased to be reminded that once we convict them, they aren’t human in any real sense. We put them into behavioral sinks to be raped and terrorized by _real_ thugs, teach them fear and paranoia as survival skills. Maybe after a few years of that “correction”, we give them a cheap suit, couple of bucks, kick them loose and tell them to go get a job. And even after all that correction and guidance to the righteous path, half of them or more will be right back! Proves they are no damned good, right? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2747 "2015-05-21T20:12:24Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Smapti, watch this [vid](https://youtu.be/RQavIsV3sDs?list=PLQ9B-p5Q-YOP6tC-AcrdvMuxRRWjUB-et), and the vids on the accompanying list. [https://youtu.be/RQavIsV3sDs?list=PLQ9B-p5Q-YOP6tC-AcrdvMuxRRWjUB-et](https://youtu.be/RQavIsV3sDs?list=PLQ9B-p5Q-YOP6tC-AcrdvMuxRRWjUB-et) Out of context 3-second clips of police doing their job, edited together like an action movie, is supposed to convince me of what precisely? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2748 "2015-05-21T20:17:25Z")
Hey, I got an idea, super sleuth! Why not track down the complete uneditied versions, and show us how doctored and fake they are! Yeah, that’ll show 'em! ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2749 "2015-05-21T22:53:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Out of context 3-second clips of police doing their job, edited together like an action movie, is supposed to convince me of what precisely? Most, or even all, of those clips have appeared in full context previously in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2750 "2015-05-21T23:07:54Z")
If nothing else, this news establishes that it went as it should in terms of getting a grand jury to indict (Ferguson DA, among others, should be reminded of this why he ought to be ashamed for steering the grand jury in the direction of “no” and baffling them with tons of nonsense): > **[Six Baltimore police officers indicted in death of Freddie Gray](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/six-baltimore-police-officers-indicted-in-death-of-freddie-gray/2015/05/21/182f2778-fe1b-11e4-805c-c3f407e5a9e9_story.html)** > > The expected grand jury action leaves the most significant charges in the case unchanged. No special treatment or sauce required, as I said elsewhere. Just like any ham sandwich or John Doe/Joe or Josephine Blow. With the dropping of the false imprisonment charges, that seems acknowledgment that there’s an issue with the law in terms of the officers _belief_ that the knife was unlawful (whether or not it was in fact unlawful) and reason to detain him. Would be interested in seeing the evidence presented on the topic of what prompted the police to declare it was unprovoked flight (evidently we’ve only their word for it), and thus the probable cause to run after and grab/detain him (that presumably forming the basis the false imprisonment angle). It appears the legality of the arrest itself is still up in the air, so they can argue about whether the officers had reason to believe the knife was in fact illegal as the basis for arrest (whether or not it ultimately _is_ an illegal knife under Balt City ordinance). ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2751 "2015-05-21T23:22:00Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > And then there was the case of the veteran / soldier with no criminal record that voluntarily showed up at an El Paso Jail to serve a 48 incarceration for a DWI. [He never left](http://www.kfoxtv.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/KFOX14-exclusive-video-obtained-of-Fort-Bliss-soldier-shows-moments-before-his-death-while-in-custody-130924.shtml#.VV33u_lVhBf). …what the actual fuck? The guy didn’t do anything. He might not of heard the guard because his freaking ears were bleeding. My god. America, hurry up and sort your shit out. This is just flat out madness. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2752 "2015-05-21T23:33:44Z")
I believe the US established several years ago that hearing the police is _your_ responsibility. [Cite](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt1mFQG3tJg) & [cite](http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/No-charges-in-woodcarver-shooting-by-Seattle-1016227.php). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2753 "2015-05-22T00:13:02Z")
[Six officers indicted by grand jury in Freddie Grey Case.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/21/officers-indicted-grand-jury-freddie-gray_n_7415934.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063) So much for the “It was a switchblade! This sucka’s gonna get thrown out!” defense. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2754 "2015-05-22T00:54:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > To the extent that they are abused by criminals in order to avoid justice, yes. Great, so just have constitutional protections for people that the cops and DAs think are innocent. What could go wrong there? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2755 "2015-05-22T01:11:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Six officers indicted by grand jury in Freddie Grey Case.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/21/officers-indicted-grand-jury-freddie-gray_n_7415934.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063) Hey, on the plus side now that they are criminals it will be okay for some cops to shoot them. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2756 "2015-05-22T05:47:21Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …what the actual fuck? The guy didn’t do anything. He might not of heard the guard because his freaking ears were bleeding. My god. America, hurry up and sort your shit out. This is just flat out madness. Well, a DWI is not exactly “nothing”. If they felt that jail time was warranted, I suspect it probably was, though switching it from 2 to 7 days, I would like to see how they came up with that. > [@Smapti](#): > > Per your own cite, the deceased had sickle cell anemia, which he failed to disclose to the jail, and the symptoms he experienced before his death are consistent with a sickle cell crisis that they couldn’t treat because he chose to not tell them about it. If the guy is bleeding inexplicably and having trouble breathing, you know, maybe you might consider getting a doctor or medic in there, like post haste. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2757 "2015-05-22T08:51:13Z")
Just like those people, sneak themselves into jail so they can die and embarrass the police. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2758 "2015-05-22T09:35:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Per your own cite, the deceased had sickle cell anemia, which he failed to disclose to the jail, and the symptoms he experienced before his death are consistent with a sickle cell crisis that they couldn’t treat because he chose to not tell them about it. The insinuation that the jail is responsible for his death appears to be a meritless conspiracy theory on the part of the family. “Chose?” He didn’t know he had sickle cell problems (it wasn’t sickle cell anemia - you didn’t read it properly). If a prisoner looks as ill as Brown did at the end of that video then medical help should be called for. That’s pretty basic. He wasn’t even being aggressive or anything that might make some people (such as you) excuse the guards for being less than sympathetic. > [@](#): > > Law-abiding citizens don’t carry $16,000 in cash on their person. I’d be very surprised if the money was acquired through legal channels. He had a very good excuse for carrying the money and some evidence of where it came from; it was in a bank envelope, not a random bundle of used bills - not that this is definitive proof of anything but it is evidence against it being drug money or whatever. Did you read the article or not? If you did, how can you have missed those points? And why take ALL the money? Yes, the person can sue to get it back, but why leave them completely without funds at all? Doesn’t that sound harsh? If the DEA want to seize money there should be a minimum sum they allow the person to keep - I mean, even you have to agree that carrying a few hundred when on your way to a new city would not be at all unusual. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2759 "2015-05-22T11:33:35Z")
Smapti, dude. I prefer to carry cash on vacation. When we do St Martin for two weeks I typically carry 3 grand. I also carry credit cards, but I like being able to put cash on the table/bar and be done. How much cash can I carry before I’m “suspicious”? (I’m white) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2760 "2015-05-22T11:55:57Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Well, a DWI is not exactly “nothing”. If they felt that jail time was warranted, I suspect it probably was, though switching it from 2 to 7 days, I would like to see how they came up with that. …I wasn’t referring to the crime that landed him in jail, I was referring to the events that take place in the video: there wasn’t anything that he did (from the footage that was shown) that justified six or seven guards in full riot gear to enter the room and beat him down. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=137) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=139)