# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/261 "2014-12-02T05:46:01Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Exactly! Who the fuck sleeps on a sofa, in a dark room somewhere the police might be looking for a murderer? You do dangerous things, that make cops nervous and this is the probable outcome This is a funny post, but it also makes me sad. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/262 "2014-12-02T05:51:01Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > This is a funny post, but it also makes me sad. I’m not a 'Mercan, But this is exactly the attitude that is expressed in almost every thread on police shootings I see here - it was in the 12 year old with the air pistol thread, so while I was aiming for satire - it’s really not very far from the truth of how I see the attitude towards police in the US. I could well imagine, if instead of sleeping the girl had stumbled out of the bedrooms in the aftermath of the “flash bang” she would have been shot, and it would have been considered ok because she seemed like a threat, or because she should have known that when the police come the first thing you do is lay supine on the floor. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/263 "2014-12-02T06:11:18Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > In the case linked by **monstro** , there is apparently still [a possibility](http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/wayne/2014/10/03/weekley-trial-aiyana-stanley-jones/16636179/) that an appeals court will reinstate the felony charge. You can also count me dismayed that “careless discharge of a firearm causing death” is only a misdemeanor. The article you link to is dated 3 October 2014, **monstro** ’s link is dated 30 November 2014, and includes this: > [@](#): > > The trial was brought to an end while the Michigan Court of Appeals reviewed an emergency appeal of the ruling. > > Presiding Judge Michael Talbot issued the order to deny the appeal and allow the judge’s dismal to stand. > > “Although I find that the trial court erred in form and substance in granting defendant’s motion for directed verdict, we are barred from reviewing that decision,” Talbot wrote. ISTM that the article itself is mostly to give that bit of news and to let people know that, haha!, Justice sometimes get fucked up too. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/264 "2014-12-02T07:56:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Silence from the resident cop lovers on the killing of a little girl. How unsurprising. Occasionally we do other things, like sleep and so forth. Just reading the linked article, it appears the cop was blinded by a flash grenade and didn’t see anyone there. That more or less rules out murder or manslaughter. **BUT** he still fired his submachine gun into a house he presumably expected to be occupied, with no idea who he may or may not have been hitting. There’s no reasonable argument for self defence that I can see, and the level of recklessness that firing in that manner displays ought to be a serious crime in itself, and if it causes the death of someone it should be considered about as serious a crime as manslaughter. This case, unlike many of the other cases mentioned, doesn’t involve a situation where someone had the option to comply with the police, but chose not to. _Those_ are the cases where us “resident cop lovers” tend to defend the police. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/265 "2014-12-02T16:55:42Z")
[Old incident, new story.](http://thefreethoughtproject.com/police-beat-taser-shoot-man-23-times-killing-walking-street/) **“Drop his f** \*\*\* ass, drop his ass!!” one officer can be heard saying on the dashcam right before six cops put 23 bullets into a man who was lying on the ground.\*\* > [@](#): > > In the aftermath of this case, it was discovered that police not only shot an innocent man 23 times while he was surrounded by a half dozen officers, but also that those officers attempted to plant evidence, tamper with the crime scene, make false statements and stage a massive cover up for a murder. > [@](#): > > After the shooting, police can be seen pacing around the body and tampering with the crime scene. Later, it was revealed that the police officers there tried to plant multiple knives on his body and claim that he “had a knife.” However, the officers did such a poor job at covering their tracks while planting the weapon that they could not even enter it as evidence in the case. > > One of the officers even went so far as to say that he was stabbed, although it was later found that he was not stabbed, and no knife belonging to Jones was actually found or entered as evidence. > > The cover-up didnt stop there, when the police finally released the dash-cam footage it was obviously tampered with, large segments of audio and video were missing from the footage, and the time-stamps did not even match up. Even with the edits, the dash-cam footage does provide a number of clues into what actually took place, including one admission from an officer who said “he wasn’t “f\*\*\*\*\*\* doing nothing – so we all shot him” As usual, the victim was black and the cops got off scott free. * * * I’ll take this opportunity to add something personal here. I have contributed to this thread several times now. Never in my life have I personally witnessed police misbehavior. The few times (as the reporter of minor complaints) that I have interacted directly with the police, I have found the individual cops to be professional, competent and polite. It may be that’s because I’m white and usually polite myself. That may be why I find these reports of apparent police misconduct so shocking. I want my law enforcement officers to be paragons of obedience to the law, not thugs. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/266 "2014-12-02T18:51:08Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > she should have known that when the police come the first thing you do is lay supine on the floor. Supine?! Are you kidding – supine is aggressive. Prone, maggot, and don’t look me in the eye. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/267 "2014-12-03T19:54:18Z")
The police officer who killed Eric Garner with a chokehold (this chokehold is apparently [prohibited by the NYPD](http://abcnews.go.com/US/nypd-cop-chokehold-death-loses-gun-badge/story?id=24634470)), caught on video, was [not indicted](http://abcnews.go.com/US/nypd-officer-indicted-eric-garner-choke-hold-death/story?id=27341079) for Garner’s death. Whether or not this police officer should have been indicted, why was force necessary in the first place? The man was unarmed, upset, and not engaged in any activity dangerous to those around him, and it seems like this is a prime example of retreat being the wisest option. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/268 "2014-12-03T20:03:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > it seems like this is a prime example of retreat being the wisest option. I’ll revise this – not necessarily “retreat”, but de-escalation rather than escalation. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/269 "2014-12-03T20:17:46Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > [Old incident, new story.](http://thefreethoughtproject.com/police-beat-taser-shoot-man-23-times-killing-walking-street/) > > **“Drop his f** \*\*\* ass, drop his ass!!” one officer can be heard saying on the dashcam right before six cops put 23 bullets into a man who was lying on the ground.\*\* > > As usual, the victim was black and the cops got off scott free. > > * * * > > I’ll take this opportunity to add something personal here. I have contributed to this thread several times now. Never in my life have I personally witnessed police misbehavior. The few times (as the reporter of minor complaints) that I have interacted directly with the police, I have found the individual cops to be professional, competent and polite. It may be that’s because I’m white and usually polite myself. > > That may be why I find these reports of apparent police misconduct so shocking. I want my law enforcement officers to be paragons of obedience to the law, not thugs. I don’t understand. All of this came to light and yet they got away with murder? Hos does this happen? How does the federal government NOT get involved at this stage? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/270 "2014-12-03T20:44:27Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > I don’t understand. All of this came to light and yet they got away with murder? Hos does this happen? It’s funny how it works - all this is clear, obvious, and unmistakeable. Yet a grand jury refuses to indict, and the family’s lawsuit is dismissed. It’s almost as if there were more to the story than one would think. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/271 "2014-12-03T20:56:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s funny how it works - all this is clear, obvious, and unmistakeable. Yet a grand jury refuses to indict, and the family’s lawsuit is dismissed. It’s almost as if there were more to the story than one would think. > > Regards, > Shodan So is there? In the current climate, and the willingness of local government to shield their police departments I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a coverup. But I’d like to know if the article as presented above misleading. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/272 "2014-12-03T21:13:58Z")
While trying to find more articles on this particular incident I found this little gem: > **[Police Shooting Frenzy Raises Concerns](https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/police-shooting-frenzy-raises-concerns/)** > > On December 10, more than two dozen police officers from across Miami Dade County converged on a blue Volvo that had crashed in the backyard of a townhouse on 65th Street just off 27th Avenue. Jeebus. Some ass-hat shoots a cop, and all the cops immediately turn into vigilantes. Not only do they murder two unarmed guys in a car they suspected the perp to be in, but where obviously wrong about, by basically shooting the car on sight, but they endangered an entire neighborhood in their revenge killing, sending hundreds of rounds through other cars, business and homes AND even their own officers, one was almost killed by a bullet that just missed his head and another was shot in the arm. What is the point of police if they’re all just all bunch of criminals? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/273 "2014-12-03T21:23:24Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > So is there? > > In the current climate, and the willingness of local government to shield their police departments I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a coverup. But I’d like to know if the article as presented above misleading. There would have to have been a sufficient cover-up to convince a supposedly independent grand jury not to indict, and then another cover-up to convince the federal court to dismiss the family’s lawsuit. [“In sum, viewing all of the circumstances, the court finds that a reasonable officer in each of the officers’ shoes would have concluded that Jones posed an immediate threat of serious physical harm to all of the officers. The officers’ use of deadly force therefore was justified and reasonable,” Groh’s opinion reads.](http://journal-news.net/page/content.detail/id/620107/Lawsuit-against-city--police-in-Wayne-Jones-shooting-dismissed.html?nav=5281) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/274 "2014-12-03T21:24:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There would have to have been a sufficient cover-up to convince a supposedly independent grand jury not to indict, and then another cover-up to convince the federal court to dismiss the family’s lawsuit. > > [“In sum, viewing all of the circumstances, the court finds that a reasonable officer in each of the officers’ shoes would have concluded that Jones posed an immediate threat of serious physical harm to all of the officers. The officers’ use of deadly force therefore was justified and reasonable,” Groh’s opinion reads.](http://journal-news.net/page/content.detail/id/620107/Lawsuit-against-city--police-in-Wayne-Jones-shooting-dismissed.html?nav=5281) > > Regards, > Shodan Well duh, he was obviously a threat. He was a big black guy. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/275 "2014-12-03T21:30:18Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Well duh, he was obviously a threat. He was a big black guy. Who was schizophrenic and armed with a knife. > [@](#): > > Wayne Arnold Jones, 50, of Stephens City, was shot 22 times, suffering 23 gunshot wounds, on March 13, 2013, following an incident that began in the vicinity of the 100 block of Queen Street. Jones, who suffered from schizophrenia and was homeless, was shot with a Taser twice after refusing police orders and later was fatally shot when police say he stabbed an officer with a knife during a scuffle with an officer on the ground. > > …Jones’ family has admitted the man had a knife, records show. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/276 "2014-12-03T21:34:52Z")
I’ve always thought it would be really heroic if a police officer died while using less-than-lethal force, on a person who had already injured him, because he was trying to preserve the life of the suspect. I don’t suppose that’ll happen very often. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/277 "2014-12-03T21:47:16Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > I’ve always thought it would be really heroic if a police officer died while using less-than-lethal force, on a person who had already injured him, because he was trying to preserve the life of the suspect. > > I don’t suppose that’ll happen very often. It’s anecdotal and I don’t have a cite. But [Massad Ayoob](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massad_Ayoob), who was a police H2H consultant, tells the story of a rookie cop who confronted a man with a knife. The cop pulled his gun and demanded the knife wielder drop the weapon. Some onlooker taunted the cop with needing a gun to take one little knife away from a drunk. The cop holstered his pistol and attempted a knife disarm. He was stabbed to death. I don’t call that “heroic” so much as “stupid”. I wouldn’t do it, and I have practiced knife disarms at least as much as the average cop. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/278 "2014-12-04T00:21:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The police officer who killed Eric Garner with a chokehold (this chokehold is apparently [prohibited by the NYPD](http://abcnews.go.com/US/nypd-cop-chokehold-death-loses-gun-badge/story?id=24634470)), caught on video, was [not indicted](http://abcnews.go.com/US/nypd-officer-indicted-eric-garner-choke-hold-death/story?id=27341079) for Garner’s death. > > Whether or not this police officer should have been indicted, why was force necessary in the first place? The man was unarmed, upset, and not engaged in any activity dangerous to those around him, and it seems like this is a prime example of retreat being the wisest option. This case is extra depressing. There’s no valid justification for not indicting the officer who killed him. We have crystal clear evidence showing a non-aggressive guy being tackled by several men and being strangled to death. For a suspicion as lame as selling cigarettes. I’m starting think body cams won’t do shit. All the cameras will do is make the injustice harder to deny, but it won’t stop the injustice. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/279 "2014-12-04T00:33:14Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I’m starting think body cams won’t do shit. All the cameras will do is make the injustice harder to deny, but it won’t stop the injustice. ☹ I think they can help, because enough incidents like this one would presumably cause a Selma-like critical mass of anger and disapproval nation-wide. If all the police shootings of black people in 2016 are on video, then we’ll be able to determine much more accurately (if still not perfectly) which ones are legitimate and which ones aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/280 "2014-12-04T00:44:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think they can help, because enough incidents like this one would presumably cause a Selma-like critical mass of anger and disapproval nation-wide. If all the police shootings of black people in 2016 are on video, then we’ll be able to determine much more accurately (if still not perfectly) which ones are legitimate and which ones aren’t. Maybe I’m a little bit cynical, but I’m guessing we’re going to be hearing a lot of “Ooops, forgot to turn it on!” and “The camera failed! We swears!!” and “Our IT guy deleted the last year of video. Oops!”. BUT only when ti comes to police killing black or hispanic men, and 7 year old little girls. On the other hand, there will be terabytes of cop saves the kitten and similar scenarios. Definitely not the cops go on a rampage and revenge lynching, videos, those will be scrutinize very closely, then burned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=15)