# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 140
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2781 "2015-05-22T16:22:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Assuming you actually intended to do such a thing, your documented public declaration of your intent to make false statements to the police would be pretty solid evidence I could use to fight the seizure in court, as well as landing you in some pretty hot water to boot. Way to ignore my hypothetical, and no, I absolutely plan on doing no such thing. In the real world, the person wouldn’t tell you, and you would just have police at your door taking your stuff. Perfectly constitutional of them, right? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2782 "2015-05-22T16:25:37Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > In the real world, the person wouldn’t tell you, and you would just have police at your door taking your stuff. Perfectly constitutional of them, right? Yes, but it’d be a waste of their time, because they’d have no evidence to back up that seizure and they would lose in court. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2783 "2015-05-22T16:34:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What “injustice”? It’s in the Constitution: > [@](#): > > The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,[a] against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. No where does it say police can just seize cash on the off chance it might be ill-gotten. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2784 "2015-05-22T16:39:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > $3K for vacation is reasonable. $16K, whether on vacation or not, is not. Do you need an exact cutoff point? > > That said, just having the money on you should not be good enough for “probable cause” of a crime being committed. Would $4k in cash be reasonable? How about $5k? I get that $16k is too much, but what about $15k? Is there a guide online somewhere that you use, **Terr**? Can you link to it so I can know if the amount of cash I want to carry is or is not “reasonable”? Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2785 "2015-05-22T16:39:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes, but it’d be a waste of their time, because they’d have no evidence to back up that seizure and they would lose in court. Ah, I get it! No problem because you’d probably only have to spend a few thousand and wait a year or two to get your house, car, and money back. Are you still not seeing a problem with this? I’d feel remiss pointing out that the authorities do this because a lot of the time, people don’t have the time or money to fight over a few thousand dollars so the cops win by default. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2786 "2015-05-22T16:41:35Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Ah, I get it! No problem because you’d probably only have to spend a few thousand and wait a year or two to get your house, car, and money back. Are you still not seeing a problem with this? And I’d be better off in the long run with the punitive damages the court would award to me after the cops did something as laughably stupid as seize a house and car based on an anonymous phone call with absolutely no physical or documentary evidence to back it up. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2787 "2015-05-22T16:43:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes, but it’d be a waste of their time, because they’d have no evidence to back up that seizure and they would lose in court. Haha like the cops need evidence to keep stuff they seize. OMG you’re stupid. > [@Smapti](#): > > And I’d be better off in the long run with the punitive damages the court would award to me after the cops did something as laughably stupid as seize a house and car based on an anonymous phone call with absolutely no physical or documentary evidence to back it up. Let’s go to the quarry and throw stuff down there! Ddamn, you should see about bottling and selling that denial of yours. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2788 "2015-05-22T16:43:50Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > It’s in the Constitution:No where does it say police can just seize cash on the off chance it might be ill-gotten. > [@](#): > > The right of the people People, not objects. > [@](#): > > to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects _Their_ effects, not other people’s effects that they stole or otherwise acquired unlawfully. > [@](#): > > against unreasonable searches and seizures There’s nothing unreasonable about seizing the profits of an illegal venture. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2789 "2015-05-22T16:45:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And I’d be better off in the long run with the punitive damages the court would award to me after the cops did something as laughably stupid as seize a house and car based on an anonymous phone call with absolutely no physical or documentary evidence to back it up. Umm, you won’t get punitive damages. Do you think any of the people who have gotten their seized stuff returned have gotten damages? A single link would be sufficient. In fact, most of them settle for half or so of the value of what’s been taken so they don’t have to fight over it for a year. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2790 "2015-05-22T16:46:22Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Haha like the cops need evidence to keep stuff they seize. OMG you’re stupid. I have bank statements and pay stubs to prove that every dollar I’ve earned over the past 15 years was acquired lawfully from my employers and from the IRS, there are no drugs prohibited by state or federal law present in my residence or my car, and there is absolutely no one on this Earth who will testify in a court of law that I have ever sold them drugs. On what basis would a judge rule that the preponderance of evidence is against me? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2791 "2015-05-22T16:48:39Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Umm, you won’t get punitive damages. Do you think any of the people who have gotten their seized stuff returned have gotten damages? A single link would be sufficient. [A single link;](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States#Traffic_stops) > [@](#): > > Javier Gonzalez was carrying $10,000 cash in a briefcase and got pulled over in Texas; deputies handed Gonzalez a waiver, that if he signed over the money and did not claim it later, he would not be arrested, but if he refused to sign the waiver, Gonzalez would be arrested for money-laundering. Gonzalez signed the waiver wondering if the officers were real “officers of law” and wondering if he got robbed, but later sued the county, which lost, and returned his cash **plus paid him $110,000 in damages** (emphasis mine) plus attorney’s fees. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2792 "2015-05-22T16:53:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > _Their_ effects, not other people’s effects that they stole or otherwise acquired unlawfully. Did the police demonstrate probable cause to a judge, who issued a warrant? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2793 "2015-05-22T17:01:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [A single link;](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States#Traffic_stops) So basically, they tried to extort $10,000 from him, right? “Give us the money, or we’ll arrest you!” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2794 "2015-05-22T17:03:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So basically, they tried to extort $10,000 from him, right? “Give us the money, or we’ll arrest you!” And they lost. The system works. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2795 "2015-05-22T17:26:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And they lost. The system works. And how long were they sentenced for extortion? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2796 "2015-05-22T17:40:57Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [A single link;](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States#Traffic_stops) Yeah, not such a good link. [Here, under the “Civil Forfeiture” column](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States#Civil_versus_criminal_forfeiture), it says **Assets returned if owner proves innocence**. That is straight up backwards WRT how the system is supposed to work. Also, several examples given further on are very bad, _Mandrel Stuart and his girlfriend were on a date driving on Interstate 66 … The traffic stop on that balmy afternoon in August 2012 was the beginning of a dizzying encounter that would leave Stuart shaken and wondering whether he had been singled out because he was black and had a police record. Over the next two hours, he would be detained without charges, handcuffed and taken to a nearby police station … stripped of $17,550 in cash … earned through … a small barbecue restaurant … he was going to use the money that night for supplies and equipment._ In that case, IIRC, he had to close his restaurant because of financial hardship. _In May 2010 a couple was driving from New York to Florida and they were stopped by police because of a cracked windshield. During questioning, the officer decided that $32,000 cash in the van was “probably involved in criminal or drug-related activity”, seized it, shared it with federal authorities under equitable sharing. The victim hired a lawyer to get back the seized money who urged settling for half of the seized amount, and after the lawyer’s fees, the victim only got back $7,000._ $25K for a cracked windshield? _Police seized a house on the pretext that it was being used for selling drugs, after a couple’s son was arrested for selling $40 worth of illegal drugs. In another case, homeowners Carl and Mary Shelden sold their house to a man who was later convicted of fraud, but because of the real estate transaction, the Sheldens got caught up in a 10-year legal battle that left them “virtually bankrupt”; after years, they finally got back their house but it was in badly damaged condition; the Sheldens did nothing wrong._ Yeah, looks to me like the system is working :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2797 "2015-05-22T17:44:00Z")
Smaptis gonna smap. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2798 "2015-05-22T17:48:31Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > That is straight up backwards WRT how the system is supposed to work. The Supreme Court disagrees. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2799 "2015-05-22T17:48:52Z")
“going to”? ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2800 "2015-05-22T17:50:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [A single link;](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States#Traffic_stops) Got me there. I was unaware of anyone receiving punitive damages. You have to realize that this is an extreme outlier, though. Given the stories you’ve just been presented with, do you still think this is a fair and constitutional system? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=139) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=141)