# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 143
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2841 "2015-05-26T16:43:09Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’m not sure in which way exactly Tamir Rice disrespected the police or disobeyed the law. I’m sure you’ll explain. He was brandishing a weapon in public. I did what he was doing with a toy gun when I was 7, and I got a whooping and a stern talking-to. Maybe if he had he’d still be alive. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2842 "2015-05-26T16:45:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He was brandishing a weapon in public. I did what he was doing with a toy gun when I was 7, and I got a whooping and a stern talking-to. Maybe if he had he’d still be alive. Maybe if the cops hadn’t starting firing within two seconds of their arrival he’d still be alive. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2843 "2015-05-26T16:47:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Teach them the truth - that the cops are public servants whose job is to enforce the laws the people have created, and as long as you obey the law and act respectfully to them they won’t have any reason to do anything to you. For the vast majority of American history this was false for most of the country. It might be true in some areas, but it’s still false in some. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2844 "2015-05-26T16:47:58Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Maybe if the cops hadn’t starting firing within two seconds of their arrival he’d still be alive. If his gun had been real, two seconds would have been more than enough time for him to shoot and kill _them_. How much of an opportunity do you believe the law obligates you to allow yourself to be murdered before you’re allowed to defend yourself? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2845 "2015-05-26T16:50:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He was brandishing a weapon in public. No, he was playing with a toy gun in public. Which is absolutely legal, and not disrespectful. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2846 "2015-05-26T16:53:20Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > No, he was playing with a toy gun in public. Which is absolutely legal, and not disrespectful. A toy gun which was modified to make it look less like a toy. Should the cops be obligated to assume any gun pointed at them is a toy until _after_ they’re shot and killed with it? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2847 "2015-05-26T17:00:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If his gun had been real, two seconds would have been more than enough time for him to shoot and kill _them_. > > How much of an opportunity do you believe the law obligates you to allow yourself to be murdered before you’re allowed to defend yourself? If the cops gave you an order and you had less than two seconds to start obeying it or die, are you 100% sure you’re going to get it right? Maybe he didn’t understand what they were saying. What I don’t accept is that a cop gets to shoot the instant he has the slightest fear. If he’s that much of a coward he’s in the wrong job. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2848 "2015-05-26T17:04:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He was brandishing a weapon in public. I did what he was doing with a toy gun when I was 7, and I got a whooping and a stern talking-to. Maybe if he had he’d still be alive. When they pulled up there was no public around, and he wasn’t “brandishing” jack shit. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2849 "2015-05-26T17:05:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A toy gun which was modified to make it look less like a toy. How do you know it was modified ? I’ve owned several toy guns for which the red plastic thingamabob just fell off on its own. I’ve also owned Airsoft toy guns that don’t have any red plastic or visible indication that they’re not real guns. Beyond that, removing that bit of red plastic is not against the law. The law only mandates manufacturers include it. > [@](#): > > Should the cops be obligated to assume any gun pointed at them is a toy until _after_ they’re shot and killed with it? Tamir didn’t point his “gun” at the cops. _He didn’t have the time to do so_. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2850 "2015-05-26T17:08:07Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If he’s that much of a coward he’s in the wrong job. Does a police officer have _less_ of a right to self-defense than any other citizen of the United States? Where in the Constitution do you find justification for such a thing? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2851 "2015-05-26T17:12:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Does a police officer have _less_ of a right to self-defense than any other citizen of the United States? Where in the Constitution do you find justification for such a thing? The gun wasn’t real and it wasn’t pointed at him or anyone else. A cop doesn’t have a special license to think: “holy shit, if that gun is real and if he points it at me which he hasn’t done in the 1.3 seconds I’ve had to evaluate the situation I better fill him full of lead.” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2852 "2015-05-26T17:21:43Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > A cop doesn’t have a special license to think: “holy shit, if that gun is real and if he points it at me which he hasn’t done in the 1.3 seconds I’ve had to evaluate the situation I better fill him full of lead.” Does a _civilian_ have license to believe that a person brandishing a gun in a public park is a threat to them? How many shots is the other guy allowed to get off before you are allowed to defend yourself? ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2853 "2015-05-26T17:25:16Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Bloomberg: > Jobs that are more dangerous and pay less than the median US cop: > Fishermen, loggers, Misc extraction workers, iron and steel workers, roofers, garbage collectors, Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers, misc. agricultural workers, construction laborers, tax drivers and chauffers. The median pay for a police officer is $56,130. Median pay nationwide … and based on data from how many departments? That accounts for little towns in places where $25k to start is a decent living. I’d rather there be analysis based on median that excludes the outlier locales. I know $56k would cover what \*graduates \*out of state police academy make, with overtime of maybe few hundred hours a year. Even when newspapers publish links to the data produced by states (that agree to produce it), the articles usually fail to mention the incentive “other” pay cops receive that can amount to anywhere from 40% to in some cases 115% of “regular” salary. It’s one of many things legislators simply do not want the public to know about the real compensation that is far more generous than the market value of the job. Luckily, in MD (the one example where I have the most data), the incentive/“other” pay decreases where the person in fact works overtime. Given the pension figure accounts for gross annual income of highest three years, that it decreases to account for overtime helps. In a situation where the incentive/“other” pay bears no relation to overtime, the average mid-30s trooper in MD with 15 years in could be making $135k for doing very little instead of an already overly generous $102k, and the already overly generous pension would be even worse in terms of hit to taxpayer pocket. Most people don’t understand that what they _think_ is the incentive to stay in the job for 15 or 20 years – the pension – is in fact only part of the picture in a good many places. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2854 "2015-05-26T17:25:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Does a _civilian_ have license to believe that a person brandishing a gun in a public park is a threat to them? > > How many shots is the other guy allowed to get off before you are allowed to defend yourself? He wasn’t brandishing. He wasn’t pointing it. If a civilian had shot and killed him he’d be just as bad as a cop who thinks he’s Dirty Harry. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2855 "2015-05-26T17:28:45Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Over at Slate: [The Myth of the Hero Cop: Police officers earn more than you think for a job that’s less dangerous than you imagine,](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/05/the_myth_of_the_hero_cop_police_unions_have_spread_a_dangerous_message_about.html) by David Feige. > > I name the author, since Slate is notorious for counter-intuitive nonsense. In this case, he makes a decent case about cop safety, _while presenting some misleading salary statistics about New York City cops alone_. What’s misleading about it as to NYC? (That said, I note that what the budget info likely won’t mention is all the incentive pay that bears no relation to overtime pay.) Fringe benefits like very nice health insurance coverage probably costs $25k a year alone, no? ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2856 "2015-05-26T17:33:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > … and as long as you obey the law and act respectfully to them they won’t have any reason to do anything to you. If this thread illustrates anything, it’s that you’re not correct in this assertion. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2857 "2015-05-26T17:33:26Z")
Did the car have a bullhorn under the hood? As in, could the officers have approached Tamir Rice from some distance and demanded he drop the weapon (toy) before they got too close? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2858 "2015-05-26T17:42:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Teach them the truth - that the cops are public servants whose job is to enforce the laws the people have created, and as long as you obey the law and act respectfully to them they won’t have any reason to do anything to you. But if you don’t, the gloves come off and the toilet plunger goes straight up your ass, kiddies. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2859 "2015-05-26T17:52:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He was brandishing a weapon in public. . . While black. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2860 "2015-05-26T18:31:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Does a _civilian_ have license to believe that a person brandishing a gun in a public park is a threat to them? > > How many shots is the other guy allowed to get off before you are allowed to defend yourself? Why do you keep repeating the lie about him brandishing a gun at the cops, you lying liar? The video shows that you are lying, and you have been corrected on your lie numerous times, and yet you keep on lying. Why? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=142) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=144)