# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 144
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2861 "2015-05-26T18:33:33Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Did the car have a bullhorn under the hood? As in, could the officers have approached Tamir Rice from some distance and demanded he drop the weapon (toy) before they got too close? šŸ˜• Policemenā€™s time is valuable. What if, for example, the perp doesnā€™t speak English? And how many minutes do you expect the cops to waste? If the perp says No, then what? Call in a child psychiatrist? By racing right up next to Rice and minimizing verbal interaction, the cops took out the thug in the most cost-effective way possible. Kudos. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2862 "2015-05-26T18:41:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why do you keep repeating the lie about him brandishing a gun at the cops, you lying liar? The video shows that you are lying, and you have been corrected on your lie numerous times, and yet you keep on lying. > Why? The video shows he had a gun in his hands and the police reacted in exactly the way that any single person on this board would react if they saw someone waving a gun around. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2863 "2015-05-26T18:57:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The video shows he had a gun in his hands and the police reacted in exactly the way that any single person on this board would react if they saw someone waving a gun around. Liar. How could he have a gun in his hands, _and_ be reaching for his ā€œdeadly weaponā€ in his pants at the same fucking time? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2864 "2015-05-26T19:05:14Z")
No, if I saw a child on a swing set with a gun in his hand, my first assumption would be that itā€™s a toy. Because, shocking as it may be to you, few kids, even them scary thuglike black kids, come strapped to the fucking _playground_. Iā€™ve told this story before (maybe even in this thread), but when I was young and dumb I bought an Airsoft gun (which, in France, are sold in hunting shops - where real guns are also sold), unpacked it right then and there and started faffing about with it on a park bench nearby. A cop approached long-haired, be-black leathered gun waving me and asked politely whether the gun was real or not ; then advised me to go home with that thing so as not to frighten people. Amazingly he didnā€™t feel a need to plug me full of holes on sight, in dire fear for his life. Must have been a rookie. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2865 "2015-05-26T19:07:22Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > No, if I saw a child on a swing set with a gun in his hand, my first assumption would be that itā€™s a toy. Because, shocking as it may be to you, few kids, even them scary thuglike black kids, come strapped to the fucking _playground_. I see no reason to _ever_ assume that a gun is fake. Thatā€™s a mistake that you only get to make once. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2866 "2015-05-26T19:10:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I see no reason to _ever_ assume that a gun is fake. Thatā€™s a mistake that you only get to make once. So you ever get to assume the suspect doesnā€™t _have_ a gun? Thatā€™s another mistake youā€™d only get to make once. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2867 "2015-05-26T19:34:30Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So you ever get to assume the suspect doesnā€™t _have_ a gun? Thatā€™s another mistake youā€™d only get to make once. If I see someone wielding a gun, I assume that their gun is a gun, because if Iā€™m wrong, Iā€™m _dead_. Why would I ever assume that their gun is _not_ a gun? How many shots are they allowed to pop off before Iā€™m allowed to assume that the gun I see them holding is a gun? Why should I ever be required to prioritize the life of a gun-wielding stranger above my own? How much are you willing to _pay_ me to prioritize the life of a gun-wielding stranger above my own? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2868 "2015-05-26T19:38:35Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I see no reason to _ever_ assume that a gun is fake. Thatā€™s a mistake that you only get to make once. So what if itā€™s not even fake, you twatbuckle ? Owning a gun, carrying a gun, even having a gun in oneā€™s fricking hands are not threatening. If that gun is _pointed at_ a person, then you get to shoot. Not before, not on sight, not in the back, not fucking ever. You fire at the last possible moment, because thatā€™s the job. If you canā€™t handle that pressure, donā€™t be a cop. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2869 "2015-05-26T19:39:38Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > If you canā€™t handle that pressure, donā€™t be a cop. Why does a cop have less right to self-defense than any other human being? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2870 "2015-05-26T19:40:37Z")
Because thatā€™s his job. And BTW, non-cops donā€™t get to claim self-defence on the sole grounds that ā€œhe had a gun somewhere on his personā€ and absent any further context whatsoever, either. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2871 "2015-05-26T19:42:03Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Because thatā€™s his job. So you can be required by your employer to surrender your fundamental human rights? Thatā€™s an interesting stance for a liberal to take. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2872 "2015-05-26T19:43:45Z")
Since when is shooting people a fundamental human right ? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2873 "2015-05-26T19:46:37Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Since when is shooting people a fundamental human right ? Since when is self-defense _not_? Are all human beings obligated to allow themselves to be murdered by armed criminal thugs, or only the ones drawing a government paycheck? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2874 "2015-05-26T19:53:22Z")
Self-defence does not mean ā€œI get to shoot people whenever, if Iā€™m itty-bitty scared or think they might conceivably at some undetermined point in the future cause harm to meā€. And, again, if you are a cop and as such are vested by the People with the means and the authority to use force, we the People expect and demand that you do so responsibly and _not shoot random people on sight_. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2875 "2015-05-26T19:57:12Z")
So which is it, **Smapti** -Did they gun the child down while he was _brandishing_ his ā€œweaponā€, or did they gun the child down while he was _reaching_ for his ā€œweaponā€? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2876 "2015-05-26T19:58:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Since when is self-defense _not_? > > Are all human beings obligated to allow themselves to be murdered by armed criminal thugs, or only the ones drawing a government paycheck? Black 12 year old child, **Smapti**. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2877 "2015-05-26T20:01:12Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Self-defence does not mean ā€œI get to shoot people whenever, if Iā€™m itty-bitty scared or think they might conceivably at some undetermined point in the future cause harm to meā€. Can you read my mind? Are you capable of objectively inferring whether or not I or any other human being is in genuine fear of their life? _No_. You are not. If I see a civilian waving a gun around in a public place, then I have every reason to believe that my life is in danger, because guns are deadly weapons. And just as you have no ability to read my mind and objectively measure in kilolovecrafts how precisely afraid I am, I have no ability to read that personā€™s mind and know whether they intend on shooting everyone they see in exactly two seconds or whether itā€™s just a toy. And if I am similarly armed, then you bet your sweet bippy Iā€™m going to shoot first, because if Iā€™m wrong, I am _dead_, and if itā€™s my life versus the life of some idiot waving a gun around in public, I have no reason to value their life over mine, and thereā€™s no amount of money you could pay me that would make me value their life more than my own. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2878 "2015-05-26T20:02:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So which is it, **Smapti** -Did they gun the child down while he was _brandishing_ his ā€œweaponā€, or did they gun the child down while he was _reaching_ for his ā€œweaponā€? Yes. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Black 12 year old child, **Smapti**. You seem to think that detail is relevant somehow. I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2879 "2015-05-26T20:10:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes. > > You seem to think that detail is relevant somehow. I disagree. You are one fucked-up asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2880 "2015-05-26T20:10:34Z")
Iā€™m looking through the history books for an example of when ā€œAll you have to do is just as youā€™re told and you will be OKā€ was ever an honest or fulfilled promise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=143) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=145)