# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 145
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2881 "2015-05-26T20:12:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You seem to think that detail is relevant somehow. I disagree. And that’s why your babysitting jobs dried up. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2882 "2015-05-26T20:14:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You are one fucked-up asshole. Is a 12-year-old child any less capable of pulling a trigger and ending an innocent human life than an adult? No. They are not. Is their race relevant to their ability to do so? No. It is not. What, then, is relevant? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2883 "2015-05-26T20:22:56Z")
The California ACLU has a new phone app called CopBlock. It allows you to make a video recording of a police action, upload it to the ACLU’s website, and tag it with information about the encounter. There is also a “Witness” feature which will notify you if there is a police encounter going on in your area so you can go there to participate as a witness to the encounter. [http://www.copblock.org/123734/aclu-launches-mobile-justice-police-accountability-app-in-california/](http://www.copblock.org/123734/aclu-launches-mobile-justice-police-accountability-app-in-california/) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2884 "2015-05-26T20:29:05Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > And BTW, non-cops don’t get to claim self-defence on the sole grounds that “he had a gun somewhere on his person” and absent any further context whatsoever, either. Actually, they do in many jurisdictions, and it’s the responsibility of the State to prove they weren’t defending themselves. The sooner that law is expanded, and self defence becomes a fully recognised human right, the better. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2885 "2015-05-26T20:30:46Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > And that’s why your babysitting jobs dried up. “Shot my child. Would not re-hire.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2886 "2015-05-26T20:39:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Actually, they do in many jurisdictions, and it’s the responsibility of the State to prove they weren’t defending themselves. The sooner that law is expanded, and self defence becomes a fully recognised human right, the better. So if you carry, you want someone else to have the right to shoot you down if there are no witnesses(or if the witnesses are friends) as a fully recognized human right? “Life, Liberty, Getting Gunned Down In A Back Alley And The Pursuit Of Happiness!” Has a nice ring to it. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2887 "2015-05-26T20:45:39Z")
[North Carolina county sheriff refuses to accept a subpoena in a lawsuit against his department, has the process server arrested for trespassing, gets slapped down by a federal judge.](http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/05/26/flagrant-abuse-of-power-by-nc-sheriff-results-in-a-federal-restraining-order/) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2888 "2015-05-26T20:47:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If I see someone wielding a gun, I assume that their gun is a gun, because if I’m wrong, I’m _dead_. That wasn’t my question, though. Would you assume that anyone you approach has a gun, because if you assume they don’t (and they do), it’s a mistake you’d only to get to make once because you’d be dead. Or if you prefer, _dead_. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2889 "2015-05-26T20:51:18Z")
[New York Housing Authority has told its housing project workers to wear orange vests so the police won’t shoot them.](http://justice.gawker.com/nyc-housing-authority-doesnt-trust-nypd-not-to-kill-its-1707004476) ---
**Author:** ![Shin\_Ji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Shin\_Ji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shin_Ji)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2890 "2015-05-26T20:52:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > _Especially_ if you’re black. If more black youths were taught to trust and respect the police rather than being taught that the police are out to get you because **RACISM** , most of these “controversial encounters” would never happen in the first place. If the pigs weren’t murdering Black youth, this wouldn’t be a problem, now would it? ---
**Author:** ![Shin\_Ji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Shin\_Ji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shin_Ji)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2891 "2015-05-26T20:56:17Z")
Also, Smapti, if a police officer can’t deal with a 12 year old with a gun, they need to find another line of work. Seriously. Get some distance. Talk to them. Which is exactly what they do when the kid with a gun happens to be white. > **[Alliance police issue warning after teen refuses to drop pellet gun](https://fox8.com/news/alliance-police-issue-warning-after-teen-refuses-to-drop-pellet-gun/)** > > ALLIANCE, Ohio- The Alliance Police Department is asking parents to talk to their children about obeying police orders after an incident over the weekend. Officers were called to West Cambridge Str… ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2892 "2015-05-26T21:00:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So if you carry, you want someone else to have the right to shoot you down if there are no witnesses(or if the witnesses are friends) as a fully recognized human right? No, if I threaten to kill or seriously injure someone, they should have the right to shoot me down, whether or not there are witnesses. The right to self defence should not depend on there being someone to witness it. I (obviously) don’t carry a gun, but the downside of that is living in a country that effectively doesn’t recognise the right to self defence. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2893 "2015-05-26T21:01:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Can you read my mind? Are you capable of objectively inferring whether or not I or any other human being is in genuine fear of their life? _No_. You are not. > > If I see a civilian waving a gun around in a public place, then I have every reason to believe that my life is in danger, because guns are deadly weapons. And just as you have no ability to read my mind and objectively measure in kilolovecrafts how precisely afraid I am, I have no ability to read that person’s mind and know whether they intend on shooting everyone they see in exactly two seconds or whether it’s just a toy. And if I am similarly armed, then you bet your sweet bippy I’m going to shoot first, because if I’m wrong, I am _dead_, and if it’s my life versus the life of some idiot waving a gun around in public, I have no reason to value their life over mine, and there’s no amount of money you could pay me that would make me value their life more than my own. Then I think we’re all of us praying you never ever lay your hands on so much as a water pistol, you lunatic. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2894 "2015-05-26T21:03:49Z")
I can imagine certain conditions wherein that would be an instructive and worthwhile experience. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2895 "2015-05-26T21:07:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, if I threaten to kill or seriously injure someone, they should have the right to shoot me down, whether or not there are witnesses. The right to self defence should not depend on there being someone to witness it. No, but if it has to be positively proven you were \*not \*shooting in self-defence and the default assumption is that you were, on the sole evidence that a gun was found on or around the body, it’s rather self-evident that every back-alley murder will have been committed in self-defence. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2896 "2015-05-26T21:30:06Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > No, but if it has to be positively proven you were \*not \*shooting in self-defence and the default assumption is that you were, on the sole evidence that a gun was found on or around the body, it’s rather self-evident that every back-alley murder will have been committed in self-defence. And yet that’s not happening in the places where that is the law. But, so what if it does happen? Better than people being punished for defending themselves. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2897 "2015-05-26T23:12:18Z")
At least twice in my life I was under the erroneous opinion that someone was about to do me grievous bodily harm. I was not armed, and no damage was done. I do not imagine I am qualified to entitle myself to lethal force. I have serious doubts about you, as well. Rather more, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2898 "2015-05-27T00:05:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And yet that’s not happening in the places where that is the law. But, so what if it does happen? Better than people being punished for defending themselves. In other words, better let a hundred innocents get gunned down, so long as one isn’t falsely punished. Good, sound logic that. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2899 "2015-05-27T00:14:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I can imagine certain conditions wherein that would be an instructive and worthwhile experience. I was having a good chuckle to myself in the tub, picturing the adventures of Officer Bob “Self-Defence King” Smapti the SWAT member. - All right guys, robbery at Bob’s House of Unguarded Bags of Currency. Family hostage. Stack up. GO GO GO ! Hostage on the right ! _bratttt_ Smapti ?! That was the wife ! - She looked like she could have had a gun somewhere on her person, I feared for my life ! - Jesus. Moving on… _brattt_ - That was the father ! - He could have picked up his wife’s putative gun. Feared him but good. _brattt_ - What the holy fuck is wrong with you ?! He was just a kid ! - Kids can pull triggers as well as adults, sarge. Scary shit. - There, I see the suspects ! They don’t look armed, cover me while I cuff 'em, guys. \*braaaatttttatatat _boom_ - Officer Smapti, what’s going on in there ?! - Captain ? I’m fine, I’m all right. But officers down. All of 'em I think. Thank god I was quick on the trigger, I was suddenly surrounded by people pointing guns ! Who knows what could have gone inside their heads ! They could have snapped in seconds ! Send backup, but wait till I reload first ! ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2900 "2015-05-27T01:24:26Z")
> [@Fallen](#): > > Median pay nationwide … and based on data from how many departments? That accounts for little towns in places where $25k to start is a decent living. I’d rather there be analysis based on median that excludes the outlier locales. I know $56k would cover what \*graduates \*out of state police academy make, with overtime of maybe few hundred hours a year. It looks like Bloomberg was taking BLS data - probably this dataset: [http://www.bls.gov/oes/](http://www.bls.gov/oes/) Medians are robust with respect to outliers. If you take a mean, it can be distorted by extremes. But a median salary gives the point where 50% are above and 50% below. Those figures are for a typical cop - not small town, not biggest 3 cities. I don’t know whether overtime is handled properly though. Ditto for pensions. This stuff is worth discussion, so I’m glad you posted your reply. > [@Fallen](#): > > What’s misleading about it as to NYC? (That said, I note that what the budget info likely won’t mention is all the incentive pay that bears no relation to overtime pay.) Fringe benefits like very nice health insurance coverage probably costs $25k a year alone, no? 1. The headline and the risk data was for the US, not for NYC. NYC cops are paid a lot, due to cost of living and strong unions. 2. As a first cut, you really should report something like the median salary (including overtime if possible). Then break out the effects of pensions, etc. The article had plenty of rhetoric and fluff in it: there was room for a 2-3 sentence discussion. * * * Anyway, the data shows that police work doesn’t rank among the top 10 most dangerous occupations. And most of the risks they face don’t involve firearms. Most cops are paid a professional salary. There may be cops in smaller locales who should be paid more: I won’t rule that out. I would advocate a professional salary structure for all cops if paired with a commitment to raise standards to Swedish levels. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=144) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=146)