# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 146
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2901 "2015-05-27T01:55:31Z")
Double plus upvote concur agree and right fucking ON! ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2902 "2015-05-27T02:40:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Why does a cop have less right to self-defense than any other human being? So, wait. Let me make sure I understand your position: If you - as an ordinary civilian- walk onto a playground and see a child on a swing who has a “gun,” your default assumption is that it is not a toy, but a real gun. You feel it is reasonable to assume that you are now in justifiable fear for your own (or others’) safety, and you shoot the child. You believe that you have acted in self defense? A child…on a playground…is (obviously) playing with a real gun, so he can be justifiably gunned down. Is that your position? ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2903 "2015-05-27T04:16:57Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > So, wait. Let me make sure I understand your position: > > If you - as an ordinary civilian- walk onto a playground and see a child on a swing who has a “gun,” your default assumption is that it is not a toy, but a real gun. You feel it is reasonable to assume that you are now in justifiable fear for your own (or others’) safety, and you shoot the child. You believe that you have acted in self defense? > > A child…on a playground…is (obviously) playing with a real gun, so he can be justifiably gunned down. > > Is that your position? I believe **Smapti’s** position in that case would be the Weaver stance. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2904 "2015-05-27T09:44:00Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > In other words, better let a hundred innocents get gunned down, so long as one isn’t falsely punished. Good, sound logic that. Yes, obviously. The presumption of innocence, the need for the State to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt are absolute fundamentals of justice. To deny that to someone who’s been forced to kill to protect themselves is abhorrent. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2905 "2015-05-27T10:49:46Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > If you - as an ordinary civilian- walk onto a playground and see a child on a swing who has a “gun,” your default assumption is that it is not a toy, but a real gun. You feel it is reasonable to assume that you are now in justifiable fear for your own (or others’) safety, and you shoot the child. You believe that you have acted in self defense? > > A child…on a playground…is (obviously) playing with a real gun, so he can be justifiably gunned down. > > Is that your position? Yes. Am I obliged to wait until after the armed child has shot me before I’m allowed to defend myself? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2906 "2015-05-27T11:03:55Z")
And yet another thread has been **Smaptied**. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2907 "2015-05-27T11:24:31Z")
That’s because **Smapti** is a troll and also probably insane, there’s no point in engaging with him. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2908 "2015-05-27T11:35:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes. Am I obliged to wait until after the armed child has shot me before I’m allowed to defend myself? If it was a four year old white child would you feel the need to blow his brains out? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2909 "2015-05-27T11:40:25Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, obviously. The presumption of innocence, the need for the State to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt are absolute fundamentals of justice. To deny that to someone who’s been forced to kill to protect themselves is abhorrent. And you forget that this thread is about law enforcement, which already has a huge amount of institutional and societal power over the rest of the population. I think the approach needs to differ at least somewhat in that case, or the consequences are, I believe, self evident. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2910 "2015-05-27T11:50:38Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If it was a four year old white child would you feel the need to blow his brains out? Considering that **Smapti** is on record for asserting that [he would not free slaves](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17719100#post17719100) at little/no risk to himself if he had the opportunity, and for asserting that “I was only following orders” is a [valid and reasonable defense for atrocities](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17715377&postcount=439), and has said that [MLK Jr.'s civil disobedience was wrong](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17715412&postcount=444), and has said that the _only fucking morally correct actions for a slave in the pre-1860s US was to [must suppress vomit] **[obey their master](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17715425&postcount=447)**_, and believes that it’s fucking morally acceptable to [not tell authorities about a bomb on a plane](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17721715#post17721715) if one has that knowledge, and has made many other similarly morally reprehensible statements, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if his answer is “yes”. Based on his posts, **Smapti** is pretty much anti-human, and represents the part of human nature that has allowed the worst atrocities in human history to occur. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2911 "2015-05-27T11:56:17Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If it was a four year old white child would you feel the need to blow his brains out? **Smapti** : Would you fire left to right, right to left, or what? [![](https://wegotusafamilyhere.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/my-cowboys.jpg) ](https://wegotusafamilyhere.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/my-cowboys.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2912 "2015-05-27T12:09:20Z")
White cops persecuting innocent blacks is, of course, nothing new for America. I was reminded of that on my drive home just now [listening to this documentary](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FOlV1EYxmg). Definitely worth a listen even for those already familiar with the story of Rubin Carter. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2913 "2015-05-27T12:43:32Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If it was a four year old white child would you feel the need to blow his brains out? I never said I would “feel the need” to do such a thing; only that I would be justified in doing so if I felt I had to. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2914 "2015-05-27T14:06:01Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > And you forget that this thread is about law enforcement, which already has a huge amount of institutional and societal power over the rest of the population. I think the approach needs to differ at least somewhat in that case, or the consequences are, I believe, self evident. I’d suggest that requiring cops to wear body cams would sufficiently reduce the likelihood of them being able to lie about the circumstances and be believed. I’d rather that than say that they don’t have the right to defend themselves, or the right to be presumed innocent. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2915 "2015-05-27T14:43:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I never said I would “feel the need” to do such a thing; only that I would be justified in doing so if I felt I had to. I think there is a correct answer here and that is “No, it is never justified to shoot a four year old.” Where I think we part company is that you assume that you and the police are never obligated to assume the slightest bit of risk. “He might hit me” is not an acceptable excuse for the use of deadly force, nor is “he might have a gun” or “that gun might be real”. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2916 "2015-05-27T15:10:56Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Where I think we part company is that you assume that you and the police are never obligated to assume the slightest bit of risk. “He might hit me” is not an acceptable excuse for the use of deadly force, nor is “he might have a gun” or “that gun might be real”. The standard is, as I’m sure you know by now, “am I at risk of imminent death or serious injury”. A standard that is amply met when someone is reaching for a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2917 "2015-05-27T15:16:31Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > And yet another thread has been **Smaptied**. Yeah, I know. But I can’t help it ! Everytime he posts, [this is the soundbite](https://slm-assets2.secondlife.com/assets/9466666/lightbox/Monty-Python-and-The-Holy-Grail-monty-python-16538948-845-468.jpg?1396635612) that loops in my head, and I feel the need to map the edges of the rabbit hole. For science. And entertainment. [QUOTE=Steophan] I’d suggest that requiring cops to wear body cams would sufficiently reduce the likelihood of them being able to lie about the circumstances and be believed. [/QUOTE] Yeah, that’s what was said about dashcams too. Thing is, these things seem awfully fickle and turn off at the drop of a hat (or a baton), and the tapes very brittle. And sometimes, [even when those tapes exist and show clear misconduct](http://7online.com/archive/9440401/), it takes an outside journalist to mayyybe try and locate them and have a look at them before a victim gets railroaded. Black victim, natch. The state prosecutor musta had a brain fart, forgot to ask ? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2918 "2015-05-27T15:20:16Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yeah, that’s what was said about dashcams too. Thing is, these things seem awfully fickle and turn off at the drop of a hat (or a baton), and the tapes very brittle. And sometimes, [even when those tapes exist and show clear misconduct](http://7online.com/archive/9440401/), it takes an outside journalist to mayyybe try and locate them and have a look at them before a victim gets railroaded. Black victim, natch. The state prosecutor musta had a brain fart, forgot to ask ? :dubious: Which is a separate issue to whether cops should have the same right to self defence as anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2919 "2015-05-27T15:36:37Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Which is a separate issue to whether cops should have the same right to self defence as anyone else. Non sequitur. Nice try, though. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2920 "2015-05-27T16:34:37Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Non sequitur. Nice try, though. Not at all. I was replying to a claim that cops should be treated differently to other people when it came to self defence, when you decided to claim that the police might manipulate evidence. That has nothing to do with what fundamental rights they should have. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=145) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=147)