# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 147
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2921 "2015-05-27T16:52:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The standard is, as I’m sure you know by now, “am I at risk of imminent death or serious injury”. A standard that is amply met when someone is reaching for a gun. Walter Scott had no gun, nor did he make any kind of aggressive move toward the officer who shot him in the back 8 times – well, except for not reaching for the officer’s taser. Eric Garner did not make any gun-like moves that warranted being strangled. And Freddie Gray, as far as we know, there were no guns involved. What, exactly, were these fine constables defending themselves from? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2922 "2015-05-27T16:54:46Z")
Now you’re just being silly. All those guys were black, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2923 "2015-05-27T16:55:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Not at all. I was replying to a claim that cops should be treated differently to other people when it came to self defence, when you decided to claim that the police might manipulate evidence. That has nothing to do with what fundamental rights they should have. No, you responded to the argument put forward by **Leaper** , who I agree with, that considering police have a monopoly on force (not to mention a job description that \*entirely consists \*in inserting themselves into dangerous situations) AND huge opportunities to manipulate evidence or stonewall investigations AND close ties with the judicial branch that’ll wind up examining their case ; their standard for reasonable self-defence and use of deadly force is not or should not be the same as that for “civilians” ; and that applying the civvy standards of presumption of innocence to cops was an obviously bonkers idea ; with “oh well bodycams solve that problem”. Which is what I responded to, debunking the handwave. At which point you responded with something that had nothing whatsoever to do with the points being made. Try and follow the conversation you’re having. It helps. ETA : BTW, “fundamental rights” are not absolute. They’re subject to contextual limitations, regulations, restrictions. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2924 "2015-05-27T16:57:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Can you read my mind? Are you capable of objectively inferring whether or not I or any other human being is in genuine fear of their life? _No_. You are not. > > **If I see a civilian waving a gun around in a public place, then I have every reason to believe that my life is in danger, because guns are deadly weapons.** And just as you have no ability to read my mind and objectively measure in kilolovecrafts how precisely afraid I am, I have no ability to read that person’s mind and know whether they intend on shooting everyone they see in exactly two seconds or whether it’s just a toy. And if I am similarly armed, then you bet your sweet bippy I’m going to shoot first, because if I’m wrong, I am _dead_, and if it’s my life versus the life of some idiot waving a gun around in public, I have no reason to value their life over mine, and there’s no amount of money you could pay me that would make me value their life more than my own. (bolding mine) No. Just no. There is no reason to fear a gun just because it is present. That’s ridiculous. Of course, you’re ridiculous, too, so it’s not surprising that an opinion you have would also be ridiculous. You are a sad, fearful human; a pathetic wretch. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2925 "2015-05-27T18:20:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I never said I would “feel the need” to do such a thing; only that I would be justified in doing so if I felt I had to. Can you agree that the best thing _might_ be to attempt to communicate with said child before making the determination to fire? Or do you think that you should fire as soon as you see the gun? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2926 "2015-05-27T18:37:17Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Can you agree that the best thing _might_ be to attempt to communicate with said child before making the determination to fire? Or do you think that you should fire as soon as you see the gun? That would be the ideal situation; a “didn’t your mama teach you no sense?” conversation would be preferable to shooting someone. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2927 "2015-05-27T18:56:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That would be the ideal situation; a “didn’t your mama teach you no sense?” conversation would be preferable to shooting someone. And what would you say to a _white_ child? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2928 "2015-05-27T18:58:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And at would you say to a _white_ child? Is there some inherent difference between white and black children that renders them any differently able to play with a gun and shoot someone? I’m not aware of one. Please inform me of any that you know of. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2929 "2015-05-27T19:20:51Z")
Whatever \*\*Smapti’s \*\*schtick is, after a while I think it reflects negatively on those that choose to continuously respond to it. IMO, the board would be better served if its posters voluntarily refrained from making every thread he posts in to be about him. There is no new information to be had by engaging. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2930 "2015-05-27T19:55:59Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > - All right guys, robbery at Bob’s House of Unguarded Bags of Currency. Family hostage. Stack up. GO GO GO ! Hostage on the right ! _bratttt_ Smapti ?! That was the wife ! > - She looked like she could have had a gun somewhere on her person, I feared for my life ! > - Jesus. Moving on… > _brattt_ > - That was the father ! > - He could have picked up his wife’s putative gun. Feared him but good. > _brattt_ > - What the holy fuck is wrong with you ?! He was just a kid ! > - Kids can pull triggers as well as adults, sarge. Scary shit. > - There, I see the suspects ! They don’t look armed, cover me while I cuff 'em, guys. > \*braaaatttttatatat _boom_ > - Officer Smapti, what’s going on in there ?! > - Captain ? I’m fine, I’m all right. But officers down. All of 'em I think. Thank god I was quick on the trigger, I was suddenly surrounded by people pointing guns ! Who knows what could have gone inside their heads ! They could have snapped in seconds ! Send backup, but wait till I reload first ! And… scene. ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2931 "2015-05-27T20:28:08Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > **Smapti** : Would you fire left to right, right to left, or what? > [we got us a family here!: Image](https://wegotusafamilyhere.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/my-cowboys.jpg) Well now, in Smaptiville it would work like so: The one in the center has some sort of weird (most likely alien) weapon and so would would be engaged first. The one on the left is _almost_ pointing their gun at the camera and is the next highest threat priority, then the desperado on the right. As for the creatures they are riding: work the targets dark to light (the natural order of threats) so: center, right, left. The last kid and three animals are dropped mainly 'cause its a pain in the ass to reload a partly-spent magazine (you can lose count of your bullets so easily). Of course post shooting the grieving mother of the family would be given a _stern_ lecture about letting her loved ones play with things that could be interpreted in any way as dangerous (and then arrested for not paying respectful attention to the ‘police’ officer). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2932 "2015-05-27T21:19:02Z")
> [@Battle\_Pope](#): > > Well now, in Smaptiville it would work like so: Cute. It is obvious that all three people in this picture are wielding toy guns. No rational person would have cause to feel threatened by them. Please do not pretend that this is in any way analogous to a person appearing to be a teenager brandishing in a public park a replica which has been altered to resemble a real weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2933 "2015-05-27T21:57:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Cute. > > It is obvious that all three people in this picture are wielding toy guns. No rational person would have cause to feel threatened by them. > > Please do not pretend that this is in any way analogous to a person appearing to be a teenager brandishing in a public park a replica which has been altered to resemble a real weapon. The SVPD would shoot the mother as well? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2934 "2015-05-27T22:00:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Cute. > > It is obvious that all three people in this picture are wielding toy guns. No rational person would have cause to feel threatened by them. Is reasonable to expect police officers to make the assumption that the guns are toys? That’s how people end up _dead_. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2935 "2015-05-27T22:03:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Cute. > > It is obvious that all three people in this picture are wielding toy guns. No rational person would have cause to feel threatened by them. > > Please do not pretend that this is in any way analogous to a person appearing to be a teenager brandishing in a public park a replica which has been altered to resemble a real weapon. How do you know they didn’t take real guns and paint the ends? Huh? The only way to keep your risk below your acceptable threshold of 0.000000000001% is to blow them away before they have a chance to fire. Or give them fair warning: "Dropyourweapon"BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM! ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2936 "2015-05-27T22:10:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Cute. > > It is obvious that all three people in this picture are wielding toy guns. No rational person would have cause to feel threatened by them. > > Please do not pretend that this is in any way analogous to a person appearing to be a teenager brandishing in a public park a replica which has been altered to resemble a real weapon. Yes. [Obviously a toy.](http://gunfreezone.net/wordpress/index.php/2014/12/04/super-soaker-shotgun/) So no worries. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2937 "2015-05-27T22:28:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It is obvious that all three people in this picture are wielding toy guns. No _rational person_ would have cause to feel threatened by them. You _must_ try harder, Smapti, this is _too easy_! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2938 "2015-05-27T22:45:19Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > How do you know they didn’t take real guns and paint the ends? Huh? The only way to keep your risk below your acceptable threshold of 0.000000000001% is to blow them away before they have a chance to fire. Or give them fair warning: "Dropyourweapon"BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM! Safer to issue the fair warning last. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2939 "2015-05-28T00:25:49Z")
So let’s delineate the hierarchy of risk: [ul][li]If a suspect points a gun at police, it is not reasonable to expect they they wait until shots are fired before defending themselves. That’s how cops end up _dead_.[/li][li]If a suspect has a gun, it is not reasonable to expect police to wait until it is pointed at them before defending themselves. That’s how cops end up _dead_.[/li][li]If a suspect has what looks like a gun, it is not reasonable to expect police to assume it is a toy or a fake, or unloaded, before defending themselves. That’s how cops end up _dead_.[/li][li]If a suspect looks like they might have a gun, it is not reasonable to expect police to wait until it is plainly visible before defending themselves. That’s how cops end up _dead_.[/li][li]If a suspect doesn’t look like they have a gun, it is not reasonable to expect police to assume the suspect doesn’t have a gun. That’s how cops end up _dead_.[/li][li]If a suspect looks like they don’t have a gun, it is not reasonable to expect police to assume the suspect does not have a gun. That’s how cops end up _dead_.[/li][/ul] And so forth. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2940 "2015-05-28T00:58:32Z")
This happened awhile ago, but just went [public](http://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/7/71/587596/judge-wont-seal-photo-cpd-cops-posing-african-american-man-antlers): > [@](#): > > **Chicago Police Officers Pose Black Suspect as a Hunted Animal For Photo** > > It’s a racially charged photo the Chicago Police Department didn’t want the public to see: two white cops posing with rifles as they stand over a black man lying on his belly with deer antlers on his head. When the photo came to light, one officer was fired; the other one was already in prison for leading a crew of rogue cops in robberies, home invasions and other crimes. The fired cop is fighting for his job back. Here is his lawyer’s defense: > [@](#): > > “What’s to say this individual wasn’t performing at a Christmas pageant in the district and was dressed as a reindeer and had taken the reindeer suit off? Again, I don’t mean to make preposterous arguments, but the charges in this case, they warrant that,” he said. > > Herbert also compared the photo to an episode of “Seinfeld” in which Jerry is wrongly accused of picking his nose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=146) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=148)