# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 148
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2941 "2015-05-28T05:49:01Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > Yes. [Obviously a toy.](http://gunfreezone.net/wordpress/index.php/2014/12/04/super-soaker-shotgun/) So no worries. Yes, yes, yes. Guns can also be disguised as [flashlights, bolts, knives, cell phones, and steering wheel locking devices](http://www.npdf.org/disguised-weapons/). They can be assembled from [lighters and interlocking fountain pens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_with_the_Golden_Gun_%28film%29): we can’t rule that out. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So let’s delineate the hierarchy of risk: > [ul][li]If a suspect points a gun at police, it is not reasonable to expect they they wait until shots are fired before defending themselves. That’s how cops end up _dead_.[/li][li]If a suspect has a gun, it is not reasonable to expect police to wait until it is pointed at them before defending themselves. That’s how cops end up _dead_.[/li][li]If a suspect has what looks like a gun, it is not reasonable to expect police to assume it is a toy or a fake, or unloaded, before defending themselves. That’s how cops end up _dead_.[/li][li]If a suspect looks like they might have a gun, it is not reasonable to expect police to wait until it is plainly visible before defending themselves. That’s how cops end up _dead_.[/li][li]If a suspect doesn’t look like they have a gun, it is not reasonable to expect police to assume the suspect doesn’t have a gun. That’s how cops end up _dead_.[/li][li]If a suspect looks like they don’t have a gun, it is not reasonable to expect police to assume the suspect does not have a gun. That’s how cops end up _dead_.[/li][/ul] If a suspect is near any inanimate object, it is not reasonable to expect police to assume the suspect does not have a gun. That’s how cops end up _dead_. And yet more cops are killed by motor vehicles than by firearms. Clearly we need to look at these issues with greater panic and emotion. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2942 "2015-05-28T06:26:09Z")
Don’t forget [ul][li]If a suspect responds to a demand for license or registration by reaching into his car, it is not reasonable to expect the suspect is obeying orders rather than reaching for a gun. That’s how cops end up _dead_.[/li][li]If a suspect acts uppity (claims he has the same rights as whites) or wears a hoodie, it is not reasonable to assume he presents no immediate danger. That’s how cops end up _dead_.[/li][/ul] > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > You [**Smapti**] are a sad, fearful human; a pathetic wretch. Yes. Similar descriptions apply to many of the bloated-amygdala right-wingers and gun nuts. One Doper was “afraid to travel outside the U.S. because he couldn’t take his gun.” :dubious: That **Smapti** claims to be a rational thinker on issues _other than_ the need for cops to kill blacks with toys and blacks reaching for their driver’s license just makes **Smapti** even more pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2943 "2015-05-28T08:37:46Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > If a suspect is near any inanimate object, it is not reasonable to expect police to assume the suspect does not have a gun. That’s how cops end up _dead_. And yet more cops are killed by motor vehicles than by firearms. If you say so. I’m not the one engaging in paranoid hyperbole here. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2944 "2015-05-28T10:31:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If you say so. I’m not the one engaging in paranoid hyperbole here. Lol. I’ve not time to study the thread; would you summarize your thoughts on. for example, the Tamir Rice killing? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2945 "2015-05-28T10:54:53Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Lol. I’ve not time to study the thread; would you summarize your thoughts on. for example, the Tamir Rice killing? An unfortunate accident that could have been avoided if he’d been taught not to play with realistic looking toy guns in public. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2946 "2015-05-28T10:58:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > An unfortunate accident that could have been avoided if he’d been taught not to play with realistic looking toy guns in public. It was many things, including justified and tragic, but it wasn’t an accident. Rice didn’t “accidentally” reach for his replica (not toy) gun when told to freeze, and the cop didn’t “accidentally” shoot him. Both were deliberate actions, but only the latter was a reasonable response. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2947 "2015-05-28T11:39:36Z")
It was murder. The cops fired within 2 seconds of pulling up. The kid didn’t have time to react and he was shot in cold blood. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2948 "2015-05-28T11:55:25Z")
[Man calls suicide hotline for help. Police show up and kill him.](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/28/man-calls-suicide-line-police-kill-him.html) ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2949 "2015-05-28T12:10:54Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [Man calls suicide hotline for help. Police show up and kill him.](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/28/man-calls-suicide-line-police-kill-him.html) Now that’s what I call service! ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2950 "2015-05-28T12:34:44Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [Man calls suicide hotline for help. Police show up and kill him.](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/28/man-calls-suicide-line-police-kill-him.html) The “situations where I’d call 911” list gets shorter every day. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2951 "2015-05-28T12:52:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > An unfortunate accident that could have been avoided if he’d been taught not to play with realistic looking toy guns in public. You flunked the test. Obviously tragedy could have been avoided easily had the cops talked to the kid from a safe distance. That you don’t even understand this much tells me that you are, indeed, as sick and perverted as Dopers say, or extremely stupid, or (most likely) both. Here’s another test. Cops approach a civilian. Make it a black civilian, for definiteness. Their choices are to engage the thug in conversation or empty their weapons into his center of mass. They should do the latter if (pick one): [ul][li] The chance that he will shoot them first is as high as 1%.[/li][li] If there is a one in a million chance that the cop will die if he doesn’t shoot first.[/li][li] One in a billion chance.[/li][li] If the cop worries that he’s about to sneeze. That would give the thug time to draw his weapon and shoot.[/li][li] Always. He’s colored like a thug after all. Let God sort them out.[/li][/ul] **Smapti** , you a sick sick excuse for a human being. I’m not 100% sure whether you are a perverted and soulless _racist_ idiot, or just a perverted and soulless idiot. Perhaps you’d also advocate the murder if it were a white man in a business suit brandishing the toy. But if it stinks like a duck and waddles like a duck, it probably is a duck. I’m comfortable to consider you a **perverted and soulless _racist_ idiot**. Does looking in the mirror make you want to puke? Hope this helps. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2952 "2015-05-28T13:11:23Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [Man calls suicide hotline for help. Police show up and kill him.](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/28/man-calls-suicide-line-police-kill-him.html) Jesus christ. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2953 "2015-05-28T13:37:34Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > You flunked the test. Obviously tragedy could have been avoided easily had the cops talked to the kid from a safe distance. _Or_ if the kid hadn’t been playing with a replica gun in public and tried to pull it out when the cops showed up. That’s something I was taught at half his age “toy guns are for inside play and never point one at a stranger because what if they have a real gun?” Do we just not teach kids basic survival skills anymore? What happened to taking personal responsibility for your own dumbass behavior rather than blaming everyone else when you do something stupid and it ends up costing you? > [@](#): > > Here’s another test. Cops approach a civilian. Make it a black civilian, for definiteness. Their choices are to engage the thug in conversation or empty their weapons into his center of mass. What makes him a “thug”? You haven’t described any thuggish behavior on his part. > [@](#): > > They should do the latter if (pick one): > [ul][li] The chance that he will shoot them first is as high as 1%.[/li][li] If there is a one in a million chance that the cop will die if he doesn’t shoot first.[/li][li] One in a billion chance.[/li][li] If the cop worries that he’s about to sneeze. That would give the thug time to draw his weapon and shoot.[/li][li] Always. He’s colored like a thug after all. Let God sort them out.[/li][/ul] None of the above. What is " colored like a thug" supposed to mean, anyway? Thuggery is not associated with a skin tone. Frankly, your hypothetical makes no sense. **Smapti** , you a sick sick excuse for a human being. > [@](#): > > Perhaps you’d also advocate the murder if it were a white man in a business suit brandishing the toy. What murder? > [@](#): > > I’m comfortable to consider you a perverted and soulless _racist_ idiot. I’m not the one who thinks all black people are thugs like you seem to. > [@](#): > > Does looking in the mirror make you want to puke? Well, I have put on a few pounds since my salad days. > [@](#): > > Hope this helps. Well, it certainly tells me you have some anger issues and some problems with race that you need to figure out. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2954 "2015-05-28T14:12:01Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > It was murder. Cite that the cops had malicious intent? > [@](#): > > The cops fired within 2 seconds of pulling up. The kid didn’t have time to react Do you think that when he saw a police car speeding up he thought they wanted to play cowboys and Indians with him? > [@](#): > > and he was shot in cold blood. Oh, so not only was it murder, it was _premeditated_? How long do you suppose the officers were tracking Rice for, waiting for the perfect opportunity to make their move? Or did they just decide at the beginning of the shift that they felt like killing a black person that day, and he was the first convenient target to present itself? This kind of hyperbole is what makes your cause sound like a bunch of nonsense and makes it impossible to effect any real reform, because you want to run around screaming bloody murder and demanding show trials that you can’t win. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2955 "2015-05-28T14:51:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > _Or_ if the kid hadn’t been playing with a replica gun in public and tried to pull it out when the cops showed up… What happened to taking personal responsibility for your own dumbass behavior rather than blaming everyone else when you do something stupid and it ends up costing you?.. > **Smapti** , you a sick sick excuse for a human being. So… It’s patiently explained to you that the police had a simple humane alternative way to approach. But you ignore that completely, eager to commend police behavior likely to lead to homicide. You insist that they were correct to confront in precisely a way that would give them an excuse to open fire almost as soon as they opened their doors and blame the kid’s upbringing. I suppose you think America needs a few more dozens of these homicides so black(\*) kids get the message: don’t play with toys. And your “thought” patterns sure make it seem that you never noticed that Tamir Rice was 12 years old. Think about that for a moment. Twelve years old. Were you trained on police interactions when you were 12? I guess you are one who really does think black children need to be studying _Assuming the Position_ and _How to submit to the Man_ rather than _Reading and Arithmetic_. You really are sick, **Smapti**. It would be interesting to understand what kind of bubble you inhabit in real life. If you express these views to humane people, I hope they give you feedback, and encourage you to seek help. (\* - and I do mean _ **black** _ kids, calling them “thugs” to bring attention to racist sterotypes. If you think Tamir Rice would have been shot if he were white, you’re even stupider than I think you are, and that’s very stupid.) ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2956 "2015-05-28T14:51:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What happened to taking personal responsibility for your own dumbass behavior rather than blaming everyone else when you do something stupid and it ends up costing you? How many times has a cop admitted he made a bad shooting? Ya know: “Maybe I shouldn’t have shot that kid playing with his toy”. It’s _always_ “I feared for my life”. It’s got to be a script they learn on the job to cover their ass. From the [suicide link](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/28/man-calls-suicide-line-police-kill-him.html) upthread: > [@](#): > > On Facebook, Jonas Carballosa, the second deputy involved in the Justin Way shooting, once posted the following quote: “Most people respect the badge. Everyone respects the gun.” Maybe that guy shouldn’t have one. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2957 "2015-05-28T15:17:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Do you think that when he saw a police car speeding up he thought they wanted to play cowboys and Indians with him? _He was a 12 year old child who had 2 seconds to react when a police car rushed up to him and police drew on him and yelled at him, you ghodforsaken asshole! How the holy fuck did you expect a frightened child to respond in such a situation when it looks like he is about to get blown away?_ At that point in time, _I_ would be trying to get rid of anything and everything they might find threatening, like peashooters, slingshots and toy guns. That’s what children do when they get caught, _even when told to freeze_-they try to drop the evidence. What is your fucking problem, by the way, when it come to this case? Whenever we start talking about how this _12 year old child_ got shot down, you want to change the topic to “thugs”. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2958 "2015-05-28T15:23:33Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > So… It’s patiently explained to you that the police had a simple humane alternative way to approach. But you ignore that completely, eager to commend police behavior likely to lead to homicide. Why is the person being threatened by someone else’s dumbass behavior the one with the onus to correct that behavior? > [@](#): > > You insist that they were correct to confront in precisely a way that would give them an excuse to open fire almost as soon as they opened their doors and blame the kid’s upbringing. They told him to drop the gun. If he’d done as he was told, he’d be alive. > [@](#): > > (\* - and I do mean _ **black** _ kids, calling them “thugs” to bring attention to racist sterotypes. If you think Tamir Rice would have been shot if he were white, you’re even stupider than I think you are, and that’s very stupid.) Is a white kid with a gun somehow less capable of killing someone than a black person with a gun? I’m not familiar with any such disparity. Please educate me if one exists. > [@](#): > > And your “thought” patterns sure make it seem that you never noticed that Tamir Rice was 12 years old. Think about that for a moment. Twelve years old. Were you trained on police interactions when you were 12? Yes. Yes I was. Were you _not_? > [@](#): > > I guess you are one who really does think black children need to be studying _Assuming the Position_ and _How to submit to the Man_ rather than _Reading and Arithmetic_. _All_ children need to know these things. I was taught these things in first and second grade. Maybe you were busy throwing paper airplanes and tossing around notes while the guest officer was explaining to the class how to stay out of trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2959 "2015-05-28T15:26:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > \*He was a 12 year old child who had 2 seconds to react when a police car rushed up to him and police drew on him and yelled at him, you ghodforsaken asshole! He had considerably more than 2 seconds. Do you think he couldn’t see the police car until it appeared in the surveillance camera frame? The fact that _you_ can’t see the car doesn’t mean _he_ couldn’t. > [@](#): > > How the holy fuck did you expect a frightened child to respond in such a situation when it looks like he is about to get blown away?\* I expect him to _not_ reach for the gun tucked into his pants. > [@](#): > > What is your fucking problem, by the way, when it come to this case? Whenever we start talking about how this _12 year old child_ got shot down, you want to change the topic to “thugs”. I’m not the one who brought up “thugs”. **Septimus** is the one who introduced that word to this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2960 "2015-05-28T15:40:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He had considerably more than 2 seconds. Do you think he couldn’t see the police car until it appeared in the surveillance camera frame? The fact that _you_ can’t see the car doesn’t mean _he_ couldn’t. And it does mean he did. Nothing on that tape indicates that he noticed them until they rushed him. > [@](#): > > I expect him to _not_ reach for the gun tucked into his pants. I thought you said he was already brandishing it, you lying sack of shit? If they needed to rush up to him because he was “brandishing” it, then it wasn’t in his pants…but we can all see the video that shows that _that_ is a lie. Why do you lie so much, **Smapti**? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=147) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=149)