# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 149
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2961 "2015-05-28T15:44:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > They told him to drop the gun. If he’d done as he was told, he’d be alive. Holeeee _SHIT!!_ **Smapti** : _ **How could he possibly do this without reaching for his toy gun??** _ ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2962 "2015-05-28T15:45:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Cite that the cops had malicious intent? The body of a 12 year old child who was shot for no reason. > [@](#): > > Do you think that when he saw a police car speeding up he thought they wanted to play cowboys and Indians with him? He probably wondered what the hell was going on. Here he’s just sitting there with nobody around playing with a gun. > [@](#): > > Oh, so not only was it murder, it was _premeditated_? I didn’t say it was premeditated. Not all murders require premeditation, the correct charge should have been 2nd degree murder. > [@](#): > > How long do you suppose the officers were tracking Rice for, waiting for the perfect opportunity to make their move? I’m sure he wasn’t tracked at all. > [@](#): > > Or did they just decide at the beginning of the shift that they felt like killing a black person that day, and he was the first convenient target to present itself? No, they reacted instantly and tragically incorrectly to a situation where there was no danger and they gave themselves no time to analyze the situation nor did they give the child a chance to explain that it was only a toy. > [@](#): > > This kind of hyperbole is what makes your cause sound like a bunch of nonsense and makes it impossible to effect any real reform, because you want to run around screaming bloody murder and demanding show trials that you can’t win. You have a loose definition of hyperbole when a child can be playing by himself, the cops come up with sirens wailing and in less than 3 seconds shoot him dead and we become outraged by the incident and demand justice. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2963 "2015-05-28T16:31:14Z")
I’m waiting for rules of engagement to be passed that are so restrictive that cops start saying “Fuck this shit”; and refusing to enforce the laws against simple possession and petty offences like solicitation, loitering, panhandling and open bottles. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2964 "2015-05-28T16:47:39Z")
Aw, the poor little babies might not like being told they can fire whenever they feel like it? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2965 "2015-05-28T16:48:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What happened to taking personal responsibility for your own dumbass behavior rather than blaming everyone else when you do something stupid and it ends up costing you? You do realize, do you not, that it’s possible for more than one person to bear responsibility for an outcome? There have been a lot of these situations where your reaction has been “well, here’s something that the now-dead-guy could have done to improve his odds of survival… why doesn’t he take responsibility for his own actions, why are we blaming someone else?”. And in a trivial, sense, you are often somewhat correct. In many of the recent prominent cases of a white cop killing a black person, the black person could have acted in a way that would have at least improved their odds of survival. But, and I can’t stress how important this is, that doesn’t mean that the white cops aren’t also responsible. Maybe equally responsible. Maybe MORE responsible. If I’m driving my car, and I glance down at my cell phone for a second, and at that moment a drunk driver swerves into my lane and hits me, who is responsible? Well, I shouldn’t have glanced down at my cell phone for a second. Does that absolve the drunk driver of all responsibility? A woman goes to a bar and gets a bit drunker than she should. And then someone rapes her. Who is responsible. Well, she shouldn’t have gotten as drunk as she did. Does that absolve the rapist of all responsibility? A kid is playing with a toy gun which someone else removed the visible safety tip from. Cops think it’s a real gun and kill him. He should have known about the safety tip, as should whoever he got the toy gun from. Does that absolve the cops of all responsibility? It should NOT be the case that the guideline for interacting with cops is “you must act in the 100% perfectly most safe and responsive fashion at every single moment, and if you vary from that perfectly obedient behavior you will die”. It is not possible to absolve cops of responsibility for a shooting death, either legally or morally, by pointing out that the victim’s actions were not perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2966 "2015-05-28T16:51:00Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Aw, the poor little babies might not like being told they can fire whenever they feel like it? Do you or do you not agree that human beings have the right to defend themselves against what they perceive as deadly force? > [@](#): > > The body of a 12 year old child who was shot for no reason. He was shot because he was brandishing a weapon in public. Don’t pretend you don’t know that, because you do. > [@](#): > > He probably wondered what the hell was going on. Here he’s just sitting there with nobody around playing with a gun. You contradict yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2967 "2015-05-28T16:55:03Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > But, and I can’t stress how important this is, that doesn’t mean that the white cops aren’t also responsible. Maybe equally responsible. Maybe MORE responsible. Why is the race of the officer relevant? If a black cop had shot Rice, would it have been OK in your book? > [@](#): > > If I’m driving my car, and I glance down at my cell phone for a second, and at that moment a drunk driver swerves into my lane and hits me, who is responsible? You are responsible for taking your eyes off the road. Regardless of whether the other driver is drunk, you don’t get to blame him for your texting while driving. > [@](#): > > A woman goes to a bar and gets a bit drunker than she should. And then someone rapes her. Who is responsible. You are responsible for what chemicals you choose to ingest (excepting the possibility that your intake has been tampered with). Regardless of whether you are assaulted thereafter, you don’t get to blame him for your being drunk. > [@](#): > > A kid is playing with a toy gun which someone else removed the visible safety tip from. Cops think it’s a real gun and kill him. He should have known about the safety tip, as should whoever he got the toy gun from. Does that absolve the cops of all responsibility? You are responsible for what you brandish in public. Regardless of who altered the tip of the gun, you don’t get to blame them for your choice to brandish it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2968 "2015-05-28T16:56:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Do you or do you not agree that human beings have the right to defend themselves against what they perceive as deadly force? _Rightfully_ perceive, not just claim. > [@](#): > > He was shot because he was brandishing a weapon in public. Don’t pretend you don’t know that, because you do. When they rushed up to him and shot him two seconds later the _toy_ was in his pants, not being brandished at all. Don’t lie and say you don’t know that, because you do. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2969 "2015-05-28T16:59:22Z")
[quote=“Czarcasm, post:2968, topic:700942”] > [@Smapti](#): > > _Rightfully_ perceive, not just claim. Do you possess the unique ability to read the minds of men and discern their motives? No? I thought as much. Then it rests upon you to prove that the cops in question could not _possibly_ have believed that they were in danger. > [@](#): > > When they rushed up to him and shot him two seconds later the _toy_ Which they had no way of knowing was a toy, because, they, much like you, are not possessed of the power of telepathy. > [@](#): > > was in his pants, not being brandished at all. Don’t lie and say you don’t know that, because you do. The only reason they even arrived at the scene was because of a 911 call from a person who observed him brandishing the weapon. Are you going to incriminate them in the vast conspiracy to hunt black tweens for sport as well? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2970 "2015-05-28T17:00:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Why is the race of the officer relevant? If a black cop had shot Rice, would it have been OK in your book? > > You are responsible for taking your eyes off the road. Regardless of whether the other driver is drunk, you don’t get to blame him for your texting while driving. > > You are responsible for what chemicals you choose to ingest (excepting the possibility that your intake has been tampered with). Regardless of whether you are assaulted thereafter, you don’t get to blame him for your being drunk. > > You are responsible for what you brandish in public. Regardless of who altered the tip of the gun, you don’t get to blame them for your choice to brandish it. In the case of the drunk driver, what is the drunk driver responsible for? In the case of the rapist, what is the rapist responsible for? In the case of the cops that killed the child that wasn’t brandishing jack shit when they shot him, what where the child-killing cops responsible for? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2971 "2015-05-28T17:02:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He was shot because he was brandishing a weapon in public. Don’t pretend you don’t know that, because you do. You’re diseased. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2972 "2015-05-28T17:02:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Do you or do you not agree that human beings have the right to defend themselves against what they perceive as deadly force? Actually, no. I agree that there is a right to defend against actual threats, I don’t agree that persons who cannot tell a real threat from an imaginary ones should carry weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2973 "2015-05-28T17:06:28Z")
[quote=“Smapti, post:2969, topic:700942”] > [@Czarcasm](#): > > The only reason they even arrived at the scene was because of a 911 call from a person who observed him brandishing the weapon. Are you going to incriminate them in the vast conspiracy to hunt black tweens for sport as well? Tweens? No. He was a 12 year old child, no matter how you keep trying to age him into some stereotypical black thug. He wasn’t a “tween”. They rushed and gave two seconds to live a black 12 year old _child_ because a 911 caller said he was brandishing something that looked like a toy gun, but when they got there, he wasn’t brandishing jack shit, was he? Where was the toy, **Smapti**? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2974 "2015-05-28T17:09:30Z")
Jesus, all these negative comments about the police. Here we have a situation where someone threatens suicide–so the helpful police helpfully help him to achieve his goal: > **[Man Threatens Suicide, Police Kill Him](https://www.thedailybeast.com/man-threatens-suicide-police-kill-him)** > > Justin Way was in bed with a knife. His girlfriend called a non-emergency number to try to get him into a hospital. Minutes later, cops shot him dead. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2975 "2015-05-28T17:09:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He had considerably more than 2 seconds. Do you think he couldn’t see the police car until it appeared in the surveillance camera frame? The fact that _you_ can’t see the car doesn’t mean _he_ couldn’t. Based on [the geography of Cudell park](http://goo.gl/maps/gl6lq), it looks like the car approached from the south, meaning they were not even in Tamir Rice’s field of view until they had rounded a hillock near the end of 99th street. He was not looking in that direction, so he did not notice them until they pulled up to the gazebo (if he had been looking in that direction, they would have been in view for somewhere between 3 and 6 seconds). It does not look from the video as though the light-bar was flashing, so he probably would not have thought the situation was very serious. And he was a 12 year old, who was just goofing off. How was he to know that the officer right there was emotionally unstable and should not have even been on the force in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2976 "2015-05-28T17:11:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In the case of the drunk driver, what is the drunk driver responsible for? > In the case of the rapist, what is the rapist responsible for? > In the case of the cops that killed the child that wasn’t brandishing jack shit when they shot him, what where the child-killing cops responsible for? Lots of things which in no way absolve their victims of the things that they are also responsible for. ---
**Author:** ![Mona\_Lott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee7513/32.png) [@Mona\_Lott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mona_Lott)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2977 "2015-05-28T17:12:20Z")
Please explain to me how a one second glance at a cell phone magically becomes texting while driving. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2978 "2015-05-28T17:13:46Z")
Where was the toy when they drew on him, **Smapti**? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2979 "2015-05-28T17:13:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Tweens? > No. He was a 12 year old child, no matter how you keep trying to age him into some stereotypical black thug. He wasn’t a “tween”. [Ahem;](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preadolescence) > [@](#): > > While known as preadolescent in psychology, the terms preteen, preteenager or tween are common in everyday use. A preteen or preteenager is a person 12 and under. Generally, the term is restricted to those close to reaching age 12, especially age 11. Tween is an American neologism and marketing term for preteen, which is a blend of between and teen. I’ll try to stop aging him up from age 12 to age 12. And again; you’re the one who thinks the word “thug” has some relevance to this conversation. Not me. Tamir Rice was not a thug. Is it your belief that he _was_? If so, I implore you to please justify your accusation instead of continuing to speak ill of the dead. > [@](#): > > They rushed and gave two seconds to live a black 12 year old _child_ because a 911 caller said he was brandishing something that looked like a toy gun, but when they got there, he wasn’t brandishing jack shit, was he? > Where was the toy, **Smapti**? …so now you’re saying that the toy gun, which was documented on video, doesn’t even exist? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/2980 "2015-05-28T17:15:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You’re diseased. Indeed. **Smapti** , I sincerely hope that one day it occurs to you that maybe there’s a good reason that so many respond to your political and philosophical ideals with such vehement disagreements, such that even your political allies think that you’re totally insane. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=148) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=150)