# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/281 "2014-12-04T00:44:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think they can help, because enough incidents like this one would presumably cause a Selma-like critical mass of anger and disapproval nation-wide. If all the police shootings of black people in 2016 are on video, then we’ll be able to determine much more accurately (if still not perfectly) which ones are legitimate and which ones aren’t. I want to agree, but I can’t. If a grand jury can’t look at that video and say, “Yeah, this was very fucked up. Let’s hold the cop accountable and make him stand trial”, then I don’t know what could possibly convince them. The opinions of the denizens of the internet don’t matter. It always comes down to whomever gets picked to serve on grand juries. We’ve got footage of Tamir Rice as well. That should be a slam-dunk case, but I have a sinking feeling no one’s going to be going to be jail over it either. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/282 "2014-12-04T00:46:13Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Maybe I’m a little bit cynical, but I’m guessing we’re going to be hearing a lot of “Ooops, forgot to turn it on!” and “The camera failed! We swears!!” and “Our IT guy deleted the last year of video. Oops!”. Usually there are some kind of accompanying rules addressing excuses like that. I don’t know what they are (they may vary by region), but I definitely remember reading about them. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/283 "2014-12-04T00:49:44Z")
Saw a CNN graphic that said that police related shooting fatalities for African Americans are almost 31 times that of Caucasians. I know it’s possible to be racist enough to “explain” that in a way that doesn’t reflect poorly on the police (I’m thinking of one specific way here), but not many people are, relatively speaking. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/284 "2014-12-04T00:59:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think they can help, because enough incidents like this one would presumably cause a Selma-like critical mass of anger and disapproval nation-wide. If all the police shootings of black people in 2016 are on video, then we’ll be able to determine much more accurately (if still not perfectly) which ones are legitimate and which ones aren’t. What I fear is that people will get emotional burnout and turn their attention to other things, because what’s the point of all of this indigation and outrage if nothing happens? I mean, we’re out the point now that kids are getting executed on video and yet no one really believes anything is going to be done about it. If things keep going as they are, we’ll have cops shooting pregnant women in the belly to get at their gun-brandishing, reaching-into-their-waistband, demon-eyed fetuses. Maybe Key and Peele should do a sketch on this. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/285 "2014-12-04T01:03:32Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I want to agree, but I can’t. If a grand jury can’t look at that video and say, “Yeah, this was very fucked up. Let’s hold the cop accountable and make him stand trial”, then I don’t know what could possibly convince them. The opinions of the denizens of the internet don’t matter. It always comes down to whomever gets picked to serve on grand juries. > > We’ve got footage of Tamir Rice as well. That should be a slam-dunk case, but I have a sinking feeling no one’s going to be going to be jail over it either. You might be right, but I’m hopeful (and optimistic) that more and more such videos will eventually catch on with people – people who have never had bad personal experiences with police (most white people) – in the same way that the videos of the Selma protest and police brutality did for people who had previously thought that black people had nothing to complain about. Plus, it’s an idea with pretty wide support, so I think it’s a feasible next step. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/286 "2014-12-04T01:03:39Z")
Ann Arbor officer got two complaints earlier this year where he offered to fix traffic tickets in exchange for sex. Definitely ranks as potentially controversial encounter… except he resigned while still under investigation, the case got turned over to the state police, and the Michigan State Police are currently waiting on prosecutor to authorize an [indictment.](http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2014/12/complaint_former_ann_arbor_pol.html#incart_hbx) I’d guess that could be a charge that lands him on the sex offender registry if convicted. Controversial encounter becoming a non-controversial case of handling a fucked up officer. Nothing to see here. Move along. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/287 "2014-12-04T18:55:35Z")
Absolutely fucking stellar… I walk down to Arby’s in downtown Minneapolis for lunch about 45 minutes ago. Part of the sidewalk nearby (about 40’ long) is marked as closed by police tape for no obvious reason. Cop SUV parked next to it, no cop. I go in, get my lunch, am coming back and now there’s a cop standing there on the street nearby. I stop to ask him why it is closed. Me: “Do you know why this piece of sidewalk is closed?” Cop: “Yes” (and then silence) Me: “Ok, doesn’t seem to be anything wrong with it” (officer points up. There’s someone working on the outside of the building about 20 floors up.) Me: “Ah” (nodded my head, started to turn away) Cop: (growls) “ **Stop shaking your head** ” Me: (kept walking) Oh fuck you, Officer Unstable. ---
**Author:** ![Shooby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f475e1/32.png) [@Shooby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shooby)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/288 "2014-12-05T05:00:58Z")
These killings have been going on forever, but it’s finally in the age where everyone has a video camera on hand that we can finally muster sustained outrage. Rodney King was the proto-example, but for the most part, these killings have been he-said she-said, and who would not take that boy scout cop’s word? The Eric Garner case in particular is ridiculous. Getting killed after already being taken down, strangled to death, over possibly selling cigarettes on the street? If I was in New York, I’d be right there with the protesters. Sometimes I think peaceful protests don’t actually do anything. People usually hunker down, deal with a little bad PR, and wait for it to blow over. It’s only when normal disinterested people are actually scared for their safety or property that there’s enough political will to make meaningful change. So I guess I’m kinda hoping that things burn, because that’s the only way we seem to learn. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/289 "2014-12-05T06:08:56Z")
> [@](#): > > The deadly shooting of a black, unarmed drug suspect by a white Phoenix police officer who mistook a pill bottle for a gun demonstrates the challenges law enforcement agencies face at a time of unrest over police tactics. > **[HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News](https://www.huffpost.com/)** > > Read the latest headlines, news stories, and opinion from Politics, Entertainment, Life, Perspectives, and more. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/290 "2014-12-05T08:30:35Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > What is the point of police if they’re all just all bunch of criminals? ## In many third world countries, it’s commonly understood that the cops and crims are recruited from similar demographics and indeed act in not incomparable ways. In the West, police are more professional, relatively speaking. Well functioning police forces protect and serve. The other types exist to defend a regime. Rand Paul provides us with a wider perspective. He thinks there’s a bigger story behind the police inflicted choking death of Eric Garner, and I have to say I agree. [Rand Paul](http://www.vox.com/2014/12/4/7333769/rand-paul-eric-garner): I think it’s hard not to watch that video, of him saying “I can’t breathe I can’t breathe” and not be horrified by it. But I think there’s something bigger than just the individual circumstances. Obviously the individual circumstances are important, but I think it’s also important to know that some politician put a tax of $5.85 on a pack of cigarettes, so they’ve driven cigarettes underground by making them so expensive. But then some politician also had to direct the police to say, ‘Hey, we want you arresting people for selling a loose cigarette.’ And for someone to die over breaking that law, there really is no excuse for it. But I do blame the politicians. We’ve put our police in a difficult situation with bad laws." Yeah, we really have to reconsider our policies on, wait what? _Cigarette taxes??_ That’s the bigger picture?? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/291 "2014-12-05T09:54:09Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > {…} Yeah, we really have to reconsider our policies on, wait what? _Cigarette taxes??_ That’s the bigger picture?? Gotta pimp that libertarian philosophy at every opportunity! He just might want to talk to the guy that actually did say “Hey, we want you arresting people for selling a loose cigarette”, > [@](#): > > {…} The sale of loosies had been on Chief of Department Philip Banks’ radar since at least March, when it was discussed at a meeting at Police Headquarters about quality-of-life issues, a police source said. > > Banks’ office also conducted surveillance on Bay St. and took pictures, one of which shows three men believed to be involved in an illegal cigarette sale. The News reviewed the photograph and Garner is not in it. > > At around the same time, on March 27, a caller to the city’s 311 hotline complained about the issue, saying a group of men had been selling untaxed cigarettes, and sometimes marijuana, on Bay St. every day for the past three years, a second source said. > > The caller identified one of the sellers as “a man named Eric.” {…}[RIGHT][CITE](http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/wife-man-filmed-chokehold-arrested-article-1.1893790)[/RIGHT] 'Cause he doesn’t appear to be concerned about uncollected taxes at all. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/292 "2014-12-05T11:05:49Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > [Black man stopped for walking in the cold with his hands in his pockets -] > One waits in vain for the people who say there’s no problem with the way black people are generally treated by the police to explain this one. Race is irrelevant; that’s not what citizens were reacting to. The video posted doesn’t even show his race, but _I can tell just from his accent_ that he probably looked brutish and had ape-like physiognomy. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/293 "2014-12-05T13:18:10Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > [Old incident, new story.](http://thefreethoughtproject.com/police-beat-taser-shoot-man-23-times-killing-walking-street/) > > **“Drop his f** \*\*\* ass, drop his ass!!” one officer can be heard saying on the dashcam right before six cops put 23 bullets into a man who was lying on the ground.\*\* > > As usual, the victim was black and the cops got off scott free. > > * * * > > I’ll take this opportunity to add something personal here. I have contributed to this thread several times now. Never in my life have I personally witnessed police misbehavior. The few times (as the reporter of minor complaints) that I have interacted directly with the police, I have found the individual cops to be professional, competent and polite. It may be that’s because I’m white and usually polite myself. > > That may be why I find these reports of apparent police misconduct so shocking. I want my law enforcement officers to be paragons of obedience to the law, not thugs. [Not a neutral cite, but shocking nonetheless if remotely true:](http://www.copblock.org/86874/martinsburg-wv-police-shoot-wayne-a-jones-23-times-for-walking-next-to-sidewalk/) > [@](#): > > At a point after the officers stated that they saw a knife – each officer, in unison, slowly backed away from Wayne, who lay motionless on his stomach after being horrifically brutalized. As an Officer Neely backed away, he instantaneously fired his weapon into the head of Wayne Jones and the other (4) officers followed suit. Totaling twenty-three shots, every bullet went into Wayne Jones body from the (5) officers. The Police Report clearly stated that Wayne was 5’9 and weighed 130lbs yet (5) officers who probably weighed 900-1000lbs could not subdue one 130lb individual without filling him full of holes equivalent to Swiss Cheese. > > In the reports – each officer made a scripted statement that included “knife”, “fear”, and “noncompliance” summarizing that they felt in fear of their lives; however – the video tells a much different story. In fact, in Officer Staub’s video at around 23:30 he specifically stated that “He wouldn’t fucking do nothing so we all shot him” Additionally, Staub was the officer that was purportedly stabbed by the “phantom-throwdown” knife that multiplied into two knives underneath Wayne’s body after he was killed. Four different officers made materially false statements about the existence, location and the fact that they altered the crime scene and moved the knives[sic] which were never found to have any fingerprints, dna or other forensic evidence that would conclude that Wayne, in fact, possessed a knife or stabbed an officer. No knife was ever produced. A little 50 year old man who is lying on the sidewalk after being beaten and tazed is shot 23 times. The cops planted knives on him and try to alter the recordings. Where is the outrage over this? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/294 "2014-12-05T13:40:24Z")
The lack of outrage may be due to the fact that objective sources - the grand jurors and federal judge - who examined the case found the allegations of your “cite” were not remotely true. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/295 "2014-12-05T13:52:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The lack of outrage may be due to the fact that objective sources - the grand jurors and federal judge - who examined the case found the allegations of your “cite” were not remotely true. > > Regards, > Shodan Funny how the videos seems to suggest that they are, indeed, true. Even one of the cops was heard to say he was doing nothing and they shot him. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/296 "2014-12-05T14:00:45Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Funny how the videos seems to suggest that they are, indeed, true. Even one of the cops was heard to say he was doing nothing and they shot him. Funny how the people actually qualified to make that decision completely disagree with you. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/297 "2014-12-05T14:05:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Funny how the people actually qualified to make that decision completely disagree with you. Perhaps the grand jury was misled by a system whereby the prosecutors are chummy with the cops and present half-assed cases when they pretend to make a case for indictment. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/298 "2014-12-05T14:12:37Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Perhaps the grand jury was misled by a system whereby the prosecutors are chummy with the cops and present half-assed cases when they pretend to make a case for indictment. So your theory is that there was, quite literally, a conspiracy. A conspiracy that involved 12 members of the public. Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound? No, that didn’t happen. What happened is that, like in many other cases, there’s little or no evidence the police actually did something wrong - the determination of “wrong” being made by the people’s elected representatives and codified into law, rather than by ignorant fools on message boards, of course. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/299 "2014-12-05T14:17:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So your theory is that there was, quite literally, a conspiracy. A conspiracy that involved 12 members of the public. Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound? > > No, that didn’t happen. What happened is that, like in many other cases, there’s little or no evidence the police actually did something wrong - the determination of “wrong” being made by the people’s elected representatives and codified into law, rather than by ignorant fools on message boards, of course. The grand jurors themselves were just pawns being played by a prosecutor who just went through the motions in presenting his case. A conspiracy of one. I’d say shooting a guy who has been tazed and beaten and lying on the ground to be something wrong. Shooting him 23 times is obscenely wrong. Then planting evidence on his body and doctoring the videos is just icing on the cake. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/300 "2014-12-05T14:21:28Z")
That federal judge who dismissed the case, saying > [@](#): > > In sum, viewing all of the circumstances, the court finds that a reasonable officer in each of the officers’ shoes would have concluded that Jones posed an immediate threat of serious physical harm to all of the officers. The officers’ use of deadly force therefore was justified and reasonable. Just a pawn, right? Or part of a deeper conspiracy? Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=16)