# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 154
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3061 "2015-05-28T23:17:41Z")
> [@grude](#): > > There have been a couple studies that show people have a hard time accurately judging the age of black children, and estimate them older by 4-5 years. All people? Or _white_ people? ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3062 "2015-05-28T23:37:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No, you don’t. A kneejerk obeisance to authority is not a moral code, it’s a substitute for someone who is incapable of developing one on their own. I can’t be bothered to read this whole thread but I know that, as usual, smapti is posting a bunch of crap. so I’d like to thank you for stating that so nicely, Miller. you rock! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3063 "2015-05-28T23:40:42Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > All people? Or _white_ people? > **[Black boys viewed as older, less innocent than Whites, research finds](https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/03/black-boys-older)** > > Black boys as young as 10 may not be viewed in the same light of childhood innocence as their white peers, but are instead more likely to be mistaken as older, be perceived as guilty and face police violence if accused of a crime. I think this is one of the studies, and it says the participants were “Researchers tested 176 police officers, mostly white males, average age 37, in large urban areas,”. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3064 "2015-05-28T23:45:31Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > All people? Or _white_ people? The study is described [here](http://www.thewire.com/politics/2014/03/people-including-cops-view-black-kids-less-innocent-and-less-young-white-kids/359026/). The sample was college students filling out a survey in exchange for course credit. 58% were female, 90% were white. They also studied police officers of whom 3/4 were white, 10% were black and 13% were Latino. I doubt whether the sample sizes were large enough to statistically discern differing effects based on the race of the observer. But um yeah. White Americans. Original study, pdf: [http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/psp-a0035663.pdf](http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/psp-a0035663.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3065 "2015-05-29T02:40:59Z")
> **[I'm a black ex-cop, and this is the real truth about race and policing](https://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer)** > > 5 things I wish people understood about bias in American police departments. That is an excellent article about police abuse. However I wish more articles would talk about how police terrorize and abuse the mentally ill. It isn’t just non-whites who have to put up with abusive, cruel behavior from police. Mentally ill people have to deal with that shit too, and they don’t even have anyone willing to stand up for them (no one marches in the street to defend the mentally ill from abusive cops). The incident in New Mexico is an exception. About half of people killed by police are mentally ill. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3066 "2015-05-29T03:08:33Z")
Is the percentage of mentally ill who are genuinely dangerous different from the percentage of the overall population who are dangerous? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3067 "2015-05-29T03:43:40Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Is the percentage of mentally ill who are genuinely dangerous different from the percentage of the overall population who are dangerous? Wouldn’t the percentage of the overall population who are dangerous include the mentally ill who are dangerous? Statistic consult stat! ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3068 "2015-05-29T05:41:17Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Wouldn’t the percentage of the overall population who are dangerous include the mentally ill who are dangerous? Statistic consult stat! Yes, but it would also include the mentally ill who are mostly harmless. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3069 "2015-05-29T05:52:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Nope, I’ve repeatedly said that Dunn is guilty and belongs in jail. Try again, idiot. Really, so you’re now claiming that Dunn did murder Jordan Davis. What changed your mind since the last time you lectured Bricker that the jury should have acquitted Dunn on the murder of Jordan Davis? Or did someone have access to your account while you were out of your apartment enjoying the sunshine? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3070 "2015-05-29T08:26:10Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Really, so you’re now claiming that Dunn did murder Jordan Davis. No, I’m not. I’ve said, repeatedly, he should be in jail for the attempted murder of the others. You know, when he actually broke the law and shot at them as they drove away. I also disagree with the principle of repeatedly trying people until you get a guilty verdict, which is supposedly not the way it happens in America, and yet was necessary to convict him of murder. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3071 "2015-05-29T10:36:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That you call it murder just shows your lack of rationality. Speaking the English language shows a lack of rationality? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3072 "2015-05-29T11:00:56Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Speaking the English language shows a lack of rationality? No, pre-judging a killing as murder in defiance of the available evidence shows a lack of rationality. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3073 "2015-05-29T11:25:33Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, I’m not. I’ve said, repeatedly, he should be in jail for the attempted murder of the others. You know, when he actually broke the law and shot at them as they drove away. I also disagree with the principle of repeatedly trying people until you get a guilty verdict, which is supposedly not the way it happens in America, and yet was necessary to convict him of murder. That’s not the principle – the principle is to try the accused until a verdict is reached, whether guilty or not guilty. In the US, jury verdicts must be unanimous or there is no verdict. I’ll note that, according to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung_jury#United_Kingdom), the UK also conducts re-trials if jury verdicts cannot be reached. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3074 "2015-05-29T11:43:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s not the principle – the principle is to try the accused until a verdict is reached, whether guilty or not guilty. > > In the US, jury verdicts must be unanimous or there is no verdict. > > I’ll note that, according to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung_jury#United_Kingdom), the UK also conducts re-trials if jury verdicts cannot be reached. I know that’s how it’s done, but it shouldn’t be. That a jury is unable to reach a verdict is a clear demonstration that there’s reasonable doubt of the defendant’s guilt, and that should, morally, be the end of it. The continuing erosion of the protection of defendants is worrying, and incongruous at a time when the protection of other human rights is increasing. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3075 "2015-05-29T12:20:20Z")
[Very pregnant woman wrestled to the ground and arrested for refusing to give a police officer her name](http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/28/us/barstow-california-police-video-pregnant-woman-arrest/index.html) To head off the usual defenses, the officer actually admits upfront that there’s no evidence a crime has been committed. So he had no cause to detain her or ask for any identification. For all the conservative rhetoric about standing up to big government in the defense of liberty and individual rights, I’m curious if your run-of-the-mill rightwinger would ever have the courage to say “no” to a police officer who oversteps his authority. Seems to me that all the bobbleheads on Fox News should be outraged by the video in that link. If you can’t say “NO” to your government when you have every right to, then our government really is too big and powerful. So it is very unfortunate that conservatives don’t see it like that, because if they did, maybe this shit would stop. Seems to me they think government is only the guy who lives in the White House. Meanwhile, they venerate their local guys with the guns who can destroy lives without facing any consequences. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3076 "2015-05-29T12:23:39Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, pre-judging a killing as murder in defiance of the available evidence shows a lack of rationality. So every prosecutor in the world who ever tried someone for murder is irrational? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3077 "2015-05-29T13:28:41Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [Very pregnant woman wrestled to the ground and arrested for refusing to give a police officer her name](http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/28/us/barstow-california-police-video-pregnant-woman-arrest/index.html) > > To head off the usual defenses, the officer actually admits upfront that there’s no evidence a crime has been committed. So he had no cause to detain her or ask for any identification. > > For all the conservative rhetoric about standing up to big government in the defense of liberty and individual rights, I’m curious if your run-of-the-mill rightwinger would ever have the courage to say “no” to a police officer who oversteps his authority. Seems to me that all the bobbleheads on Fox News should be outraged by the video in that link. If you can’t say “NO” to your government when you have every right to, then our government really is too big and powerful. So it is very unfortunate that conservatives don’t see it like that, because if they did, maybe this shit would stop. Seems to me they think government is only the guy who lives in the White House. Meanwhile, they venerate their local guys with the guns who can destroy lives without facing any consequences. What a surprise that the woman in question was black. Nope, no racism here. Nosiree, move right along, nothing to see here. The right wing orthodoxy is that if you’re a white multimillion dollar cheat that packs a lot of heat like Cliven Bundy, it’s perfectly justified to disrespect law enforcement and even train guns on them. If you’re an unarmed pregnant black woman who refuses to submit to an unreasonable request from a cop, you get roughed up. If you’re an unarmed black child and the police think you’re Playing While Uppity, they come and shoot you dead within three seconds of their arrival on the scene. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3078 "2015-05-29T15:46:21Z")
So this is a new one. [Chicago PD operates their own little Gitmo/Lubyanka](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-police-detain-americans-black-site). And have been for fourty years. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3079 "2015-05-29T15:50:16Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > For all the conservative rhetoric about standing up to big government in the defense of liberty and individual rights, I’m curious if your run-of-the-mill rightwinger would ever have the courage to say “no” to a police officer who oversteps his authority. Seems to me that all the bobbleheads on Fox News should be outraged by the video in that link. If you can’t say “NO” to your government when you have every right to, then our government really is too big and powerful. The boilerplate answer you always get in these cases is “comply meekly now, sue later”. But of course, that’s advising to enter a “he said, she said” with a [del]annointed hero[/del]police officer on the stand. And we know how well \*that \*works. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3080 "2015-05-29T15:54:23Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > So this is a new one. [Chicago PD operates their own little Gitmo/Lubyanka](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-police-detain-americans-black-site). And have been for fourty years. Nah, not new. Dude, yer over 3 months late noticing this story. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=153) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=155)