# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 158
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3141 "2015-05-30T23:25:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > haha yes, idiot. You are innocent until proven guilty. That’s not a technicality or a meaningless statement, it’s an actual, legal, fact. That arseholes like you don’t respect that, thinking you know better than the lawmakers _you_ elect and the juries that you and your peers are part of doesn’t change that. > > Next time you’re the victim of a crime and aren’t expected to prove you’re not a criminal yourself, fucking remember that. I don’t remember you espousing this philosophy when we were talking about Treyvon Martin, but I may have missed it. The same goes for Eric Garner, Rice, and a myriad of other cases. FTR, I thought whathisname asshole that shot Treyvon should have gotten off (even though Treyvon would have been within his rights to shoot him!); I have no comment on the other cases as I haven’t followed them closely enough. But one important thing to remember about these cases is that all the victims were innocent. Do you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3142 "2015-05-31T00:31:43Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > haha yes, idiot. You are innocent until proven guilty. That’s not a technicality or a meaningless statement, it’s an actual, legal, fact. That arseholes like you don’t respect that, thinking you know better than the lawmakers _you_ elect and the juries that you and your peers are part of doesn’t change that. > > Next time you’re the victim of a crime and aren’t expected to prove you’re not a criminal yourself, fucking remember that. You’re an absolute moron, **Steophan**. A verdict of “not guilty” does not mean “he is innocent”; it just means that the state could not prove it’s case beyond a reasonable doubt. Nothing more, nothing less. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3143 "2015-05-31T02:03:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > But then, you’re probably another one of the fuckwits who ignores the evidence and claims that Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown were murdered. You’re one of those CTs who believe Trayvon and Michael are still alive, huh? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3144 "2015-05-31T09:48:10Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > That was a very surreal experience. That incessant knocking will be the soundtrack of my nightmares for a long time. > > I don’t know how anyone can defend the craziness in this video. I posted a thread on this board once relating my own experiences with pointless police harassment asking for ID, notice in the video the man is not even driving but all the cop wants is his ID. I started purposely not carrying ID if I was walking to fuck with the cops. Most posters told me they had never experienced anything like what I related, or questioned why I had a problem with it. How many youtube vids will it take to convince people it is a real problem with police harassment in the US? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3145 "2015-05-31T11:24:56Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > But one important thing to remember about these cases is that all the victims were innocent. Do you agree? Assuming by “victim” you mean the person who was attacked and forced to defend themselves, yes, definitely. If you’re talking about the dead guy, he’s not accused of a crime, so his innocence is not being questioned. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3146 "2015-05-31T11:27:26Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > You’re an absolute moron, **Steophan**. A verdict of “not guilty” does not mean “he is innocent”; it just means that the state could not prove it’s case beyond a reasonable doubt. Nothing more, nothing less. Do you know what “innocent until proven guilty” means? It means, if they’re not proven guilty, they are innocent. You are correct in one sense, in that a not guilty verdict doesn’t _make_ someone innocent, They simply remain innocent, as they were both before and during the trial. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3147 "2015-05-31T11:30:02Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > You’re one of those CTs who believe Trayvon and Michael are still alive, huh? No, I’m one of those people who believe that words have meanings, and that “murder” does not describe a legal, justified killing. The CTs are those who believe it was murder, and that there’s some conspiracy to go around killing black people. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3148 "2015-05-31T11:36:37Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, I’m one of those people who believe that words have meanings, and that “murder” does not describe a legal, justified killing. The CTs are those who believe it was murder, and that there’s some conspiracy to go around killing black people. It’s reasonable that some people might disagree with the verdicts/legal conclusions in those cases and believe that the deaths were, in fact, murder (or may have been). And I’m not aware of any of these conspiracy theories on killing black people – rather, there is a long, long history of law enforcement abusing black people (including murdering black people) in America (not due to conspiracies, but due to racism, stereotypes, and the like), and while things are much better now than in the past, peaceful and law-abiding black people are still treated disparately and more at risk of being killed by police. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3149 "2015-05-31T12:12:37Z")
If you think that the police are agreeing between themselves to mistreat black people, and that judges and prosecutors are agreeing to let them off, that is literally a conspiracy theory. I don’t think anyone believes that there wasn’t a conspiracy to let, for example, the murderers of Emmet Till get away with it. And I use the word “murderers” there deliberately, to point out one of the rare occasions where guilt has been proven out of court. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3150 "2015-05-31T12:46:45Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If you think that the police are agreeing between themselves to mistreat black people, and that judges and prosecutors are agreeing to let them off, that is literally a conspiracy theory. I don’t think anyone believes that there wasn’t a conspiracy to let, for example, the murderers of Emmet Till get away with it. Those who killed Till did not sit down in the break room and say, “Hey J.W., let’s go find a random black guy and kill him.” They were motivated by racism, but the conspiracy was an agreement to get the guy who allegedly mistreated a white girl. They saw themselves as vigilantes enforcing a moral code. They probably would have told you that they don’t hate all black people, just rapists and sexual harassers. And the all-white jury acquitted his murderers in just over an hour, saying “If we hadn’t stopped to drink pop, it wouldn’t have taken that long.” The jury was all-white because of racist jury selection procedures–not conspiracy as such. Decades later conservatives now agree that Emmet Till was a victim of racism. But they didn’t all think so at the time. Part of that is that society has advanced, but part of it is that admitting that Till was lynched no longer has any real world consequences or implications for Southern identity. If the exact same events happened today, some posters on this board would argue that this was about overreaction to alleged mistreatment of the girl and not about racism. But the bigger problem with racist policing is not that kind of thing. It’s the decision to, say, create and enforce drug laws in a way that targets black people, despite roughly equal usage rates. Its the fear that police officers have of black men instead of white men, leading them to shoot them more often or just stop and frisk them more often. It’s the decision to try to enforce drug laws by stopping cars for pretextual reasons if the driver meets a profile that includes race. Its the accumulation of policies, some of which were motivated by racism, some of which were not–and none of which require individual racism on the part of the officer beyond the implicit biases we all have. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3151 "2015-05-31T13:01:49Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If you think that the police are agreeing between themselves to mistreat black people, and that judges and prosecutors are agreeing to let them off, that is literally a conspiracy theory. I don’t believe that. I believe that most of the mistreatment is due to racism and unfair treatment (including at the institutional levels, that **Richard Parker** mentions) that the actors are not even aware of. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3152 "2015-06-01T00:47:21Z")
[No charges for Robert Minjarez Jr.'s killers. > [@](#): > > A grand jury has declined to indict Louisiana police officers who held a man down, with officers at on top of him, while he said, “I can’t breathe.” > > The Advertiser ([Officers who sat on handcuffed Scott man not indicted](http://bit.ly/1eK1DxA) ) also quotes the FBI as saying it did not find anything the Justice Department’s Civil Rights Unit could prosecute. > > Thirty-year-old Robert Minjarez Jr. was declared dead five days after his arrest by Carencro and Scott police and Lafayette Parish sheriff’s deputies in March 2014. > > The coroner’s report says the main cause of death was “compressional asphyxia due to face-down physical restraint by law enforcement officers.” ]([http://bigstory.ap.org/article/4402b44406094308affb8ffa0a779bd3/no-charges-death-man-who-told-cops-he-couldnt-breathe](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/4402b44406094308affb8ffa0a779bd3/no-charges-death-man-who-told-cops-he-couldnt-breathe)) Nothing to prosecute? Death isn’t a violation of civil rights? I have no right to not be dead because of someone else’s negligence or maliciousness? We have some pretty bad laws if that’s the case. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3153 "2015-06-01T00:55:24Z")
Where do you get that his death was caused by negligence or maliciousness, rather than proper procedure and/or necessary force? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3154 "2015-06-01T01:03:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Where do you get that his death was caused by negligence or maliciousness, rather than proper procedure and/or necessary force? Are you fucking stupid or just a run of the mill racist asshole? > [@](#): > > The report says several officers remained wholly or partly on top of Minjarez after his hands and legs were cuffed, and he repeatedly said he couldn’t breathe. His hands and legs were cuffed, so in what universe do several officers have to be wholly or on top of him? How the fuck is this proper procedure and necessary force? Jesus Titty Fucking Christ you are one fucking miserable worthless piece of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3155 "2015-06-01T01:18:46Z")
Odd that the people who’ve seen the actual evidence disagree with you. I’ll ask again, what actual reason do you have for thinking it was malicious or negligent? Not baseless speculation, actual reasoning. His arms and legs were cuffed. So? Doesn’t mean he wasn’t struggling. Especially as he was on cocaine when he was arrested. As for racism, I’ve no idea what colour the guy was, and unless you’ve read a story other than the ones cited, neither have you. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3156 "2015-06-01T01:27:04Z")
Did you fucking read the link within the linked story? [http://www.theadvertiser.com/story/news/2015/05/28/officers-indicted-restrained-mans-death/28075855/](http://www.theadvertiser.com/story/news/2015/05/28/officers-indicted-restrained-mans-death/28075855/) > [@](#): > > His upper body was on the street, his hips and legs were on the sidewalk, the report states. At least three or four officers remained on top of or partially on top of Minjarez while he lay face down, his hands and legs cuffed. > > For about five minutes, Minjarez is heard on audio from the dash cams screaming, “Help, help. Help me. Get off. You’re going to kill me,” the coroner’s report states. He continues, “You’re going to suffocate…” and “I can’t breathe” three times. He cried and screamed, his voice becoming “increasingly muffled, hoarse and strained” while repeating “I can’t breathe.” > > Around five minutes into the restraint, he groans and gurgles and an officer said “You got 265 pounds on your back, you’re not going anywhere.” He “is heard to make an agonal groan and no more sounds are heard from him,” the report states. If you don’t think that is excessive force then you’re nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3157 "2015-06-01T01:58:13Z")
So, you think the Grand Jury weren’t given that particular bit of information, then? Or are they nuts as well? Or, just possibly, have you got no fucking idea what you’re talking about? That’s a more likely explanation. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3158 "2015-06-01T04:12:27Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Are you fucking stupid or just a run of the mill racist asshole? > [@Steophan](#): > > As for racism, I’ve no idea what colour the guy was … So, just a run of the mill asshole. Not even an interesting asshole, just some nugget-crusted ring. I mean look at what he has been doing all over this thread. He makes **adaher** look like some kind of rocket surgeon. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3159 "2015-06-01T06:14:29Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > So, just a run of the mill asshole. Not even an interesting asshole, just some nugget-crusted ring. He’s the long-lost twin brother of the Black Knight, who so bravely guarded the bridge against all who would pass, when Arthur, King of the Britons, travelled the length and breadth of England in search of the Holy Grail. Be careful or he’ll bite your legs off. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3160 "2015-06-01T07:36:36Z")
Not a good family movie, too much Saxon violence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=157) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=159)