# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/301 "2014-12-05T14:24:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That federal judge who dismissed the case, saying Just a pawn, right? Or part of a deeper conspiracy? > > Regards, > Shodan If the judge finds that a beaten, bleeding, and tazed 50 year old man weighing 130 pounds lying on the sidewalk poses a threat to a half dozen armed men surrounding him, then the judge must have been corrupt, stoned, insane, or stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/302 "2014-12-05T14:26:45Z")
Oh, and just to cut off one of the characteristic paranoid rants from the resident fruitcakes, Judge Groh was nominated by Jay Rockefeller and appointed in 2012, Guess which party controlled the Senate and White House then. [Cite](http://www.statejournal.com/story/19844652/us-district-judge-gina-grohs-appointment-to-be-celebrated-in-shepherdstown), as if it would help against the usual delusions. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/303 "2014-12-05T14:31:17Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If the judge finds that a beaten, bleeding, and tazed 50 year old man weighing 130 pounds lying on the sidewalk poses a threat to a half dozen armed men surrounding him, then the judge must have been corrupt, stoned, insane, or stupid. If he wasn’t a threat, he wouldn’t have been beaten, bleeding, and tazed by the cops in the first place - or if he wasn’t, the judge and grand jury would have found that. If he was still resisting arrest after that, he was most definitely still a threat. Please, just attempt to actually think before you post at least once. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/304 "2014-12-05T14:32:21Z")
The blue wall cuts across parties. To cut the judge a smidgen of slack, I’ll give the lion’s share of the blame to the prosecutor. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/305 "2014-12-05T14:34:03Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If he wasn’t a threat, he wouldn’t have been beaten, bleeding, and tazed by the cops in the first place - or if he wasn’t, the judge and grand jury would have found that. If he was still resisting arrest after that, he was most definitely still a threat. Please, just attempt to actually think before you post at least once. Are you in your hood today or are your sheets in the wash? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/306 "2014-12-05T14:34:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Oh, and just to cut off one of the characteristic paranoid rants from the resident fruitcakes, Judge Groh was nominated by Jay Rockefeller and appointed in 2012, Guess which party controlled the Senate and White House then. > > [Cite](http://www.statejournal.com/story/19844652/us-district-judge-gina-grohs-appointment-to-be-celebrated-in-shepherdstown), as if it would help against the usual delusions. > > Regards, > Shodan In pondering some of the pit threads recently, and feeling some pull towards comity, I almost crafted a post thanking you for having changed your posting style - providing more content than one-line drive bys and knocking off the “usual suspects” stupidity. I still do appreciate the broader change, for what that’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/307 "2014-12-05T14:58:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The lack of outrage may be due to the fact that objective sources - the grand jurors and federal judge - who examined the case **found the allegations of your “cite” were not remotely true**. > > Regards, > Shodan (bolding mine) Is that what they found? Do you have a cite for the bolded part above? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/308 "2014-12-05T15:06:09Z")
There isn’t any such change. The idea that I post almost nothing but one-line drive-by snark isn’t true. So I appreciate the thought, but it isn’t really necessary. I post one-liners, jokes, parodies, detailed and researched multi-paragraph discussions, and everything in between. It simply is not the case that I post more one-line snark than other posters with a comparable number of posts. It is due merely to attibution bias, and the fact that a good many of those who disagree with me don’t read anything I write beyond the first line, and therefore notice the one-liners disproportionately. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/309 "2014-12-05T17:11:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I post one-liners, jokes, parodies, detailed and researched multi-paragraph discussions, and everything in between. > > It simply is not the case that I post more one-line snark than other posters with a comparable number of posts. It is due merely to attibution bias, and the fact that a good many of those who disagree with me don’t read anything I write beyond the first line, and therefore notice the one-liners disproportionately. > > Regards, > Shodan FWIW I believe you. When somebody can’t argue against you, they resort to smear tactics and lies. Welcome to the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/310 "2014-12-05T17:34:04Z")
_A man’s snark must exceed his grasp, Or what’s a Pit for?_ Regards, and apologies to Robert Browning, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/311 "2014-12-05T17:36:28Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Are you in your hood today or are your sheets in the wash? _coffeespit_ I’ll PM you the address for a new keyboard. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/312 "2014-12-05T18:34:19Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If the judge finds that a beaten, bleeding, and tazed 50 year old man weighing 130 pounds lying on the sidewalk poses a threat to a half dozen armed men surrounding him, then the judge must have been corrupt, stoned, insane, or stupid. Corruption (as it’s legally defined) is fairly rampant in most professions, unfortunately. That someone has taken an oath not to be corrupt is also unfortunately entirely irrelevant (think of them like most do old-fashioned marital vows: cute and nice but not practically feasible for the long haul and violation subject to whim). One has to operate from a presumption of corruption (which in the legal sense includes simple wilful disregard/nonfeasance, whereas the average layperson and even a good chunk of officers of the court erroneously limit the definition to people trading influence or favors for $$$ or other gain). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/313 "2014-12-05T20:51:15Z")
I have a general question for anyone who might know; from another thread I was reading, in Texas the judge selects grand jury members from a list of “upstanding” members of the community, the majority of whom are retired cops. Is that true? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/314 "2014-12-05T20:52:12Z")
> [@Fallen](#): > > Corruption (as it’s legally defined) is fairly rampant in most professions, unfortunately. Let’s see a cite for this. Or are you really saying that corruption isn’t rampant? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/315 "2014-12-05T20:56:13Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I have a general question for anyone who might know; from another thread I was reading, in Texas the judge selects grand jury members from a list of “upstanding” members of the community, the majority of whom are retired cops. Is that true? > [@](#): > > A person can serve on a grand jury in Harris County if he: > > ü is a citizen of Harris County, Texas, and qualified to vote in Harris County; > > ü is of sound mind and good moral character; > > ü is able to read and write; > > ü has never have been convicted of any felony; > > ü is not under indictment or other legal accusation for theft or any felony; > > ü is not on probation for theft or any felony; > > ü has not served as a grand juror or grand jury commissioner in the last year; > > ü is not related to any person selected to serve or serving on the same grand jury; > > ü is not a complainant in any matter to be heard by the grand jury during the term of court for which he has been selected as a grand juror. > > How is a grand jury selected? > > The court selects 3 to 5 grand jury commissioners. These commissioners are charged with compiling a list of not less than 15 nor more than 40 persons to be summoned as grand jurors. From this list, the court impanels twelve (12) grand jurors and two (2) alternate grand jurors to serve. > > The law requires the commissioners to select grand jurors who “represent a broad cross section of the population of the county, considering the factors of race, sex and age.” [Cite](http://www.justex.net/grandjuryinfo/faq.aspx). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/316 "2014-12-05T21:06:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [Cite](http://www.justex.net/grandjuryinfo/faq.aspx). > > Regards, > Shodan Thanks, that’s helpful. I did a search on “Harris County grand jury selection” and found the [following](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/08/01/houston-grand-juries-too-white-too-law-and-order-and-too-cozy-with-cops/): > [@](#): > > Records obtained through a Texas Public Information Act request show that Senior Police Officer James Koteras, sworn in in July of 1972, led an investigation into the death of his own colleague [as foreman on the grand jury investigating the case]. > … > As it turns out, isn’t it all uncommon for former cops, former prosecutors, and members of the law enforcement community to serve on grand juries in Texas. It isn’t even uncommon for active police to serve on them. Clay Conrad is a Texas criminal defense attorney. He’s currently challenging the indictment of one of his client on the grounds that the way Harris County grand juries are selected is inherently biased. “It happens all the time,” Conrad says. “They love to pack grand juries with former police officers. ETA: After reading the above again…journalism standards have really slipped ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/317 "2014-12-05T21:12:13Z")
Following some of the links in that story, I also found the [following](http://www.chron.com/opinion/outlook/article/Grand-jury-system-s-a-bad-joke-on-justice-1776656.php): > [@](#): > > In Harris County, grand jurors are selected by grand jury commissioners chosen by state district court judges. These commissioners are instructed to select grand jurors who ‘‘represent a broad cross section of the population of the county, considering the factors of race, sex and age.’’ > > This is laughable. The grand jurors that are chosen in Harris County are too white and too conservative. Most grand juries here don’t even come close to reflecting the ethnic, racial and political makeup of Texas’ most populous county. I know mine didn’t. > … > > Contrary to what you may have guessed, I am not a liberal. On the contrary, I’m likely the most conservative person you will ever meet. My parents were both Marines, and I was an Army officer who became a federal law enforcement officer. I’m now retired. I am the military topics editor for the Conservative Voice, a Web site dedicated to ‘‘faith, family, freedom,’’ and a member of the Republican National Lawyers Association. I was appointed by Gov. Rick Perry to a state advisory committee. > > I was absolutely astonished by the demographics which seem to spread across all the grand juries impaneled. They were largely made up people from my ‘‘tribe,’’ which can best be described as white, quite right, conservative Republicans. > > If you took a cross-section of most of the grand jurors who have served in Harris County over the last several years, I would probably look like a Ted Kennedy liberal by comparison. It is not that I am liberal, but that most of the others selected to serve on the grand juries are so conservative. And from my initial quote: > [@](#): > > In a 2004 study, University of Houston criminologist Larry Karson found plenty of evidence to support key-man critics. Karson looked at grand commissioners selected in Harris County 2002 and 2003 (the latter being the year Brown was indicted). It found that of the 129 people to serve as commissioners (again, these are the people who pick the grand juries), more than half were employed in some way by the criminal justice system. Two of the commissioners were former prosecutors. Incredibly, one was a sitting judge on the state appellate court “responsible for reviewing appeals from the very district court judge that she nominated grand jury candidates for.” Another 11 commissioners worked for the county’s probation office. Six more were retired law enforcement officers. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/318 "2014-12-05T21:22:14Z")
Anyway, the reason for my question was this story: [Texas Grand Jury Clears Cops Caught on Camera Beating a Woman in Jail](http://www.forharriet.com/2014/12/texas-grand-jury-clears-cops-caught-on.html) I wonder how many former cops were sitting on the grand jury that heard the case? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/319 "2014-12-05T21:23:59Z")
I can believe that a lot of the commissioners are former law enforcement employees. I have more trouble with the notion that a majority of grand jury _members_ are retired cops. I would also expect that one of the common objections may apply - the requirement that the members have no felony convictions means that in places where minorities are unfairly targetted by police, “disparate impact” would come into play. Is there any way to discover the background of grand jury members, or is that secret? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/320 "2014-12-05T21:35:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I can believe that a lot of the commissioners are former law enforcement employees. I have more trouble with the notion that a majority of grand jury _members_ are retired cops. > > I would also expect that one of the common objections may apply - the requirement that the members have no felony convictions means that in places where minorities are unfairly targetted by police, “disparate impact” would come into play. > > Is there any way to discover the background of grand jury members, or is that secret? > > Regards, > Shodan Although I don’t know for sure, from reading [this study,](http://swacj.org/swjcj/archives/3.1/Karson.pdf) it appears the study author was able to get the names of the grand jurors (but apparently not any other background information), and did the following analysis based on those juror’s surnames: > [@](#): > > Census data states that the County is approximately one third Hispanic. Based on the previous Census figure calculations, approximately 21.2% of the adult (over 18) citizen population of the County is Hispanic. A review of the grand jurors actually nominated for grand jury duty in the County from January 2001 to December 2003 revealed the following: > > Out of 40 grand jury candidates lists supplied by the court clerk, 32 actually identified the selected grand jurors and alternates. Out of the entire 40 candidate lists of 836 potential jurors, 98 were Hispanic surnamed, equaling 11.7% of the list. > > Out of the identified grand jurors (384 individuals from the identifying 32 lists), 34 were Hispanic surnamed, equaling 8.85% of the total identified jurors. > > When looking at the alternate grand jurors (those individuals who are grand jurors in name only unless one of the primary jurors has an untimely death), 11 Hispanic surnames were found among 64 alternates, equaling 17.1%, almost double the actual grand juror percentage. > > No forepersons were identified as Hispanics out of the 32 jury lists. Five assistant forepersons, a position activated only in the absence of the foreperson, were identified, equaling 15.6% of the assistant positions. > > If grand jurors were drawn randomly from the general adult citizen population, the expected number of Hispanics among the 676 grand jurors would be 141. The standard deviation is approximately 11 (10.56). The data in this case reflect a difference between the expected and observed number of Hispanic grand jurors of approximately 6 (5.6) standard deviations. That is twice what is considered acceptable by the United States Supreme Court (Castaneda v. Partida, 1977) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=17)