# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 162
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3221 "2015-06-02T19:34:53Z")
Kinda depends on the non-compliance. Me, I always thought I was forthright and firm but then I found out I was a scream like a little girl and run away kind of guy. Failing that, beg, beseech and implore. This guy refused to obey a “cease and desist” order to stop breathing… Hard core. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3222 "2015-06-02T23:30:16Z")
[WaPo has been gathering stats on police shootings since January](http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/fatal-police-shootings-in-2015-approaching-400-nationwide/2015/05/30/d322256a-058e-11e5-a428-c984eb077d4e_story.html). 385 fatalities so far this year (just shootings). A quarter of them were in some way mentally ill. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3223 "2015-06-03T00:25:51Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > [WaPo has been gathering stats on police shootings since January](http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/fatal-police-shootings-in-2015-approaching-400-nationwide/2015/05/30/d322256a-058e-11e5-a428-c984eb077d4e_story.html). 385 fatalities so far this year (just shootings). A quarter of them were in some way mentally ill. The victims or the police? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3224 "2015-06-03T01:08:01Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > The victims or the police? 😛 Well, that officer who sent Tamir Rice to his reward had some very serious issues and probably should not have been on the street. But no, the story implies that the police are the last people you should think of calling if somebody is in a poor mental state. The cops are just not equipped to cope with that. It would be like taking a person who is freaking out on acid to a hospital – never ever do that, or the other thing. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3225 "2015-06-03T02:27:04Z")
Something the police in my town are putting into effect is to have social workers who are trained in dealing with nutters ride along with the police on calls that may involve a mentally ill person. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3226 "2015-06-03T13:37:34Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > This is the false claim you keep repeating. You can’t be certain of that, you are simply choosing to disbelieve the cops who say he was a threat on principle. > > They needed to further restrain him because the level of restraint they used wasn’t sufficient. Even after he was sat on, he continued to struggle. What, I ask again in the vain hope of a sensible answer, _should_ they have done to successfully restrain him? And please, for fuck’s sake, stop asking stupid questions like “why should the police be restraining violent people who are high on crack”. It’s their job, that’s why. But HOW can someone still “resist” to the extent of endangering police officers when the suspect’s arms and legs are cuffed? Headbutting or biting? Only if the police officer is sitting on them. If the cops step away, they’re safe even from that. This is a serious question, btw, not a rhetorical one. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3227 "2015-06-03T14:38:58Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > But HOW can someone still “resist” to the extent of endangering police officers when the suspect’s arms and legs are cuffed? Headbutting or biting? Only if the police officer is sitting on them. If the cops step away, they’re safe even from that. > > This is a serious question, btw, not a rhetorical one. In a way, **Steophan** is right-he was struggling. _Struggling to breathe_. And then he wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3228 "2015-06-03T15:12:40Z")
I don’t care if he was writhing around like a worm on a hot plate, what the hell is he going to do? Step back, let him wear himself out, then pick him up and send him on his way. No risk to cop, no risk to detained person. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3229 "2015-06-03T16:43:24Z")
Yeah, leave him to lay there and writhe around, probably injuring himself that way. Not a chance any of you fuckers would complain about that :smack: Guy in the van in Baltimore - not restrained enough, and died. Guy here - restrained too much, and died. You know what? Resisting the police to the extent you need major physical restrain will _always_ put you at risk. What, exactly, do you want them to do? Leaving someone to “flop around” is so ridiculous as to not even be worth considering, it’s not going to happen as it’s obviously dangerous to the suspect and anyone nearby, so come up with a better way of restraining someone, without risk to suspect or officers - as I’ve asked many times - or shut the fuck up, because you’ve got no better solution. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3230 "2015-06-03T16:48:47Z")
[Kentucky police](http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/kentucky-police-shipped-mentally-ill-inmate-to-florida-by-greyhound-bus-then-charged-him-with-escape/) shipped mentally ill inmate to Florida by Greyhound bus — then charged him with escape > [@](#): > > . . . a Kentucky police chief bought a one-way ticket to Florida for the man, sending him on a 28-hour bus ride, only to have the state extradite him back by saying he escaped. > > According to investigation by the Kentucky Center for Investigative Reporting, Carrollton Police Chief Michael Willhoite spent $18 of his own money to rid himself of 31-year-old Adam Horine, instead of following a judge’s order to send him to Eastern State Hospital in Lexington for a thorough psychiatric assessment. A real WTF moment for me on this one. Sending the guy to the hospital would have been both cheaper (for the chief personally) and legal with the same benefit of getting him out of the local lockup. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3231 "2015-06-03T16:49:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What, exactly, do you want them to do? Restrain them without killing them. Is that too much to ask? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3232 "2015-06-03T16:59:20Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Restrain them without killing them. Is that too much to ask? Well, that’s the problem. It’s quite possible that, in some cases, yes it actually is too much to ask. If I’m wrong, and there’s a way of restraining someone effectively that’s _never_ fatal, please share it. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3233 "2015-06-03T17:02:25Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yeah, leave him to lay there and writhe around, probably injuring himself that way. Not a chance any of you fuckers would complain about that :smack: Guy in the van in Baltimore - not restrained enough, and died. Guy here - restrained too much, and died. You know what? Resisting the police to the extent you need major physical restrain will _always_ put you at risk. > > What, exactly, do you want them to do? Leaving someone to “flop around” is so ridiculous as to not even be worth considering, it’s not going to happen as it’s obviously dangerous to the suspect and anyone nearby, so come up with a better way of restraining someone, without risk to suspect or officers - as I’ve asked many times - or shut the fuck up, because you’ve got no better solution. I think he’d much rather writhe around than be suffocated. The guy in Baltimore was unsafely transported and given a sadistic “rough ride”. How about putting fucking seat belts on the guys being transported? Why is it ridiculous to let him flop around? He’ll tire of it soon enough then you can pick him up and be on your way. Sitting on the guy so he can’t breathe is just killing for pleasure. These cops probably put firecrackers in the mouths of frogs when they were little. And why is it dangerous to anyone nearby? Just give the guy some space and if a bystander wanders into the scene, keep them a safe distance away. It isn’t that hard to handle the situation without committing manslaughter. Of course, that seems to be the outcome that gives you the most pleasure. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3234 "2015-06-03T17:11:16Z")
Watching **Steophan** argue is like watching a kiddy party clown make balloon animals. Stretch, twist, stretch, twist, knot it up…look! Its an argument! Because a thing is possible doesn’t make it likely, because something is rational does not make it reasonable. Sure, people can get struck by lightning, that’s _possible!_ Doesn’t mean that shoving a lightning rod up your Huckabee is a _reasonable_ precaution! And if you do, please post the video. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3235 "2015-06-03T17:20:24Z")
There may be a universe where it makes sense to say “We can’t let him flop around! He might hurt himself! We better sit on him so he can’t breathe and he suffocates to death!” Unfortunately for Steophamti, this universe is not it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3236 "2015-06-03T19:05:44Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > How about putting fucking seat belts on the guys being transported? Absolutely. Use the correct amount of restraint. Of course, in an ideal world the amount of restraint needed would be none, as people would do what the fuck they’re told by the police, including to shut up and stay still, but as people (including many law abiding arseholes, as well as criminals) refuse to do that, restraint is necessary. But go on, tell me honestly that if he’d been left there to flop about (as if that’s all someone in cuffs can do) and bashed his head and was injured, you wouldn’t be criticising the cops for negligence. Sitting on someone is a damn good way to restrain a violent person, but obviously risky. But do you really think this guy was ready to get quietly into the police car when the cop decided to throw him to the ground and sit on him? Cos that’s the only way his actions would be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3237 "2015-06-03T19:15:25Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Sitting on someone is a damn good way to restrain a violent person, but obviously risky. But do you really think this guy was ready to get quietly into the police car when the cop decided to throw him to the ground and sit on him? Cos that’s the only way his actions would be wrong. Actually, it isn’t a good way to restrain someone. It’s a better way to kill him. You don’t think it was possible for about four guys to stuff a handcuffed and legcuffed guy into the back of a cruiser? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3238 "2015-06-03T19:19:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Well, that’s the problem. It’s quite possible that, in some cases, yes it actually is too much to ask. If the police are so ill-trained that they cannot restrain a prisoner without killing him, they should get out of the policing business. If a prisoner is in handcuffs and suffocates to death, it means they failed in their duty. The death of an unarmed, handcuffed prisoner is never a justifiable outcome. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3239 "2015-06-03T19:25:53Z")
How the hell does one writhe into an attack posture while bound and and foot? Not even a trained, Olympic level professional, like the famous Steven “Red” Wriglar, could do that! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3240 "2015-06-03T20:17:47Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The death of an unarmed, handcuffed prisoner is never a justifiable outcome. Nonsense. It’s a good thing that the courts disagree with you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=161) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=163)