# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 166
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3301 "2015-06-06T05:30:21Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Find me instances of the police launching an unprovoked attack on an innocent person, and I’ll be sure to condemn them. But all this “The cops were restraining a violent, drugged up habitual criminal! How dare they?!” bullshit that’s going on is fucking ridiculous. Yes, it would be better if the idiots who threaten cops with guns or continue to resist after being restrained didn’t die, but I’m not going to cry for anyone that stupid. Whatever their age. I have two general responses to your recent lines of conversation: (1) with respect to the idea that what the police are doing is legal, that’s a bit of a gray area, in general. The laws don’t say “here are 5 ways to restrain a suspect that are legal, this one is legal as long as it only lasts for 45 seconds, here are 5 maneuvers that are illegal”, or anything as precise as that. Rather, (as far as I know) they talk about things like “reasonable force”, etc. Therefore it’s impossible to just describe an incident and immediately have everyone agree with no doubt that the use of force either was or was not legal. Instead we have to trust our criminal justice system. BUT, that comes with the huge caveat that since cops are part of the criminal justice system, there’s strong (and in my opinion justifiable) suspicion that it does not come to just and equitable conclusions when it comes to cops. (2) there’s a middle ground between “cops only apply savage beatings to criminals” and “cops just randomly pick innocent people and give them savage beatings”, which is “cops only apply savage beatings to people they SUSPECT are criminals”. And even if they’re often right (after all, both the guy in Ferguson and the guy in New York with the choke hold (sorry, I’m blanking on both of their names… Michael Brown?) had in fact committed crimes of some level of severity shortly before their deaths) they’re presumably not _always_ right, and more importantly, they aren’t judge, jury and executioner. If they suspect someone of a crime it is their job to arrest that person, kind of by definition. But that person is not yet a convicted criminal, and might never be, and is therefore not in some karmic or moral fashion deserving of mistreatment, as you seem to be implying. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3302 "2015-06-06T05:34:12Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Find me instances of the police launching an unprovoked attack on an innocent person, and I’ll be sure to condemn them. There have been two examples in the last 21 posts or so, and yet we haven’t seen you condemn anything or anyone. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3303 "2015-06-06T06:08:25Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > There have been two examples in the last 21 posts or so, and yet we haven’t seen you condemn anything or anyone. > > :dubious: Criminals. And persons of African descent. And, it seems, those who have trouble respecting the police. No one should even look an officer in the eye, it would be like making eye contact with a Bengal tiger or something. It seems as though no one gets a pummeling but that they deserve it. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3304 "2015-06-06T10:59:34Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Criminals. And persons of African descent. And, it seems, those who have trouble respecting the police. No one should even look an officer in the eye, it would be like making eye contact with a Bengal tiger or something. It seems as though no one gets a pummeling but that they deserve it. They’re operating with a messed up Venn diagram here. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3305 "2015-06-06T11:02:18Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > They’re operating with a messed up Venn diagram here. Actually, a circle is a quite simple design. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3306 "2015-06-06T11:12:09Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > There have been two examples in the last 21 posts or so, and yet we haven’t seen you condemn anything or anyone. > > :dubious: OK, pepper spraying someone who’s not a threat to you is unacceptable, and I’m glad he’s been disciplined. There was another case mentioned where a cop shot someone in self defence, but that’s not an attack of any sort, unprovoked or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3307 "2015-06-06T11:17:57Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I have two general responses to your recent lines of conversation: > (1) with respect to the idea that what the police are doing is legal, that’s a bit of a gray area, in general. The laws don’t say “here are 5 ways to restrain a suspect that are legal, this one is legal as long as it only lasts for 45 seconds, here are 5 maneuvers that are illegal”, or anything as precise as that. Rather, (as far as I know) they talk about things like “reasonable force”, etc. Therefore it’s impossible to just describe an incident and immediately have everyone agree with no doubt that the use of force either was or was not legal. Instead we have to trust our criminal justice system. BUT, that comes with the huge caveat that since cops are part of the criminal justice system, there’s strong (and in my opinion justifiable) suspicion that it does not come to just and equitable conclusions when it comes to cops. > > (2) there’s a middle ground between “cops only apply savage beatings to criminals” and “cops just randomly pick innocent people and give them savage beatings”, which is “cops only apply savage beatings to people they SUSPECT are criminals”. And even if they’re often right (after all, both the guy in Ferguson and the guy in New York with the choke hold (sorry, I’m blanking on both of their names… Michael Brown?) had in fact committed crimes of some level of severity shortly before their deaths) they’re presumably not _always_ right, and more importantly, they aren’t judge, jury and executioner. If they suspect someone of a crime it is their job to arrest that person, kind of by definition. But that person is not yet a convicted criminal, and might never be, and is therefore not in some karmic or moral fashion deserving of mistreatment, as you seem to be implying. Cases of restraint leading to death or shootings in self defence are nothing to do with unprovoked, savage beatings. The closest we’ve had to that in this thread recently is the pepper spraying, and it would be a hell of a stretch to call that either savage or a beating. And Michael Brown wasn’t killed because he stole some cigars, he was killed because he was threatening the life of the man who killed him. Eric Garner wasn’t killed because he was selling illegal cigarettes, he was killed as a consequence of resisting the police. If the police are going around executing people for petty crimes, or for their skin colour, or whatever, I’d be horrified - but that’s not happening. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3308 "2015-06-06T11:37:59Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There was another case mentioned where a cop shot someone in self defence, but that’s not an attack of any sort, unprovoked or otherwise. A subset of the “self defense” police killings have been shown to be manufactured situations. A gun is dropped, evidence rearranged, etc, and even the “good cops” play along. After a few of these come to light, people become suspicious of all self defense claims. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3309 "2015-06-06T12:01:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Eric Garner wasn’t killed because he was selling illegal cigarettes, he was killed as a consequence of resisting the police. And that is fucked up. Resisting police is not a capital crime. ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3310 "2015-06-06T17:41:33Z")
Neither is stepping off a tall building, but amazingly enough, you’re likely to die from that, too. You’re assuming intent to kill where there was none. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3311 "2015-06-06T17:50:07Z")
Your argument is circular. You’re only likely to die from it because of the bad policy and practices. Either a given individual is both objectively and subjectively a threat of death or serious bodily injury, or he’s not. If he is, deadly self-defense can be warranted. If he isn’t, it’s not. Whether he is resisting arrest is not dispositive of that question, however much the authoritarians among us want it to be. A big part of the problem is that we take declarations of subjective fear at face value when they come from police, and refuse to overrule them with objective judgments. If the guy in Ferguson who had the police officer point a gun at him during a peaceful protest had killed that police officer in self-defense, not one of the members of the authoritarian community would have declared it justified self-defense, even though pointing a gun in someone’s face is exponentially more threatening than thrashing around on the ground while in hand and leg cuffs. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3312 "2015-06-06T17:52:00Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If the police are going around executing people for petty crimes, or for their skin colour, or whatever, I’d be horrified - but that’s not happening. This is sheer ignorance talking. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3313 "2015-06-06T18:07:50Z")
The good news: [Jury convicts LAPD officer of assaulting, including groin-kicking, a woman she was transporting after watching the video footage of the incident](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-jury-verdict-lapd-officer-in-assault-trial-20150605-story.html). The bad news? This monstrous police officer’s actions and callousness led to the woman’s death. I think her ass should have been convicted of involuntary manslaughter, at the very least. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3314 "2015-06-06T19:27:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And that is fucked up. Resisting police is not a capital crime. And he wasn’t killed as a punishment, so that’s irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3315 "2015-06-06T19:30:07Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > This is sheer ignorance talking. No, it’s not. The police aren’t executing anybody, for any reason or for none. By using such a ridiculous level of hyperbole, you destroy any argument you might have against police practices. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3316 "2015-06-06T19:32:07Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The good news: > > [Jury convicts LAPD officer of assaulting, including groin-kicking, a woman she was transporting after watching the video footage of the incident](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-jury-verdict-lapd-officer-in-assault-trial-20150605-story.html). > > The bad news? This monstrous police officer’s actions and callousness led to the woman’s death. I think her ass should have been convicted of involuntary manslaughter, at the very least. I’d like to state for the record (are you reading, **Bo** ) that this cop’s behaviour was reprehensible. Hopefully as body cams are introduced, the cops that do this will be caught, or at least prevented from doing it because they know they will be caught. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3317 "2015-06-06T19:32:13Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, it’s not. The police aren’t executing anybody, for any reason or for none. By using such a ridiculous level of hyperbole, you destroy any argument you might have against police practices. My bad, actually. I read “executing” as “arresting.” I agree that, with maybe a rare exception or two, the problem here is not police setting out to kill them some petty criminals or black people. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3318 "2015-06-06T19:39:01Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Either a given individual is both objectively and subjectively a threat of death or serious bodily injury, or he’s not. If he is, deadly self-defense can be warranted. If he isn’t, it’s not. Whether he is resisting arrest is not dispositive of that question, however much the authoritarians among us want it to be. Restraining someone who’s resisting arrest is not the same as self defence, except that both can justify the use of force. > [@](#): > > A big part of the problem is that we take declarations of subjective fear at face value when they come from police, and refuse to overrule them with objective judgments. “Objective judgement” is a contradiction in terms, which is probably why we don’t make them. The question that matters is whether a reasonable person would have felt fear at that point. Certainly in Ferguson, when someone was reaching into his car and trying to grab his gun, a reasonable person would have been in fear for his life. And it’s certainly possible that, if the same person was running back towards you despite having been shot (I think) twice, he’d also be in fear. > [@](#): > > If the guy in Ferguson who had the police officer point a gun at him during a peaceful protest had killed that police officer in self-defense, not one of the members of the authoritarian community would have declared it justified self-defense, even though pointing a gun in someone’s face is exponentially more threatening than thrashing around on the ground while in hand and leg cuffs. If a cop is pointing his gun at you in the course of his duty, you don’t have a right to defend yourself. I’m amazed that something so obvious needs to be mentioned. As for the guy thrashing around, the restraint is to prevent it reaching the point where he’s a threat - something the cops are allowed to do and you are not. Also, enough of the bullshit about “peaceful protest”. It was a series of riots and loots, nothing legitimate or peaceful about it. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3319 "2015-06-06T19:54:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Restraining someone who’s resisting arrest is not the same as self defence, except that both can justify the use of force. That’s true, but irrelevant to the point. Obviously, accidentally killing someone while restraining them is not the same as self-defense. But the discussion was about whether recklessly or knowingly doing so was somehow justified by the threat posed by the person. That is a self-defense analysis. > [@Steophan](#): > > “Objective judgement” is a contradiction in terms, which is probably why we don’t make them. That’s 100% false as a matter of law. Self-defense law looks at both the subjective judgment of the individual, and whether a reasonable person would have been in fear in those circumstances. The latter is known as “objective” judgment. > [@Steophan](#): > > If a cop is pointing his gun at you in the course of his duty, you don’t have a right to defend yourself. This is true or false depending on what you mean by “course of his duty.” It is not the case, as you seem to believe, that one categorically cannot assert self-defense if they kill an on-duty officer. > [@Steophan](#): > > Also, enough of the bullshit about “peaceful protest”. It was a series of riots and loots, nothing legitimate or peaceful about it. There were both, of course. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3320 "2015-06-06T20:31:58Z")
I saw a particularly intelligent post in another thread: > [@Fuck you, Wayne Burgarello & fuck that jury too](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-wayne-burgarello-fuck-that-jury-too/721352/167): > > I tend to agree that it’s very bad practice to ever threaten with a gun. If you have a gun and think you are in danger for your life and it’s the only way to protect yourself, you shoot. If you have a gun, but do not think your life is in danger, you do other stuff–call 911 and lock your bedroom door, go out the back door, whatever. > > But there’s no point in threatening with a gun. It’s pointless escalation, because now the other person is afraid they might die, and scared people do stupid things. > > If someone is genuinely in a corner and has no way of knowing what’s going on (like they wake up with a stranger in their bedroom, for example), I don’t think they have to warn anyone. But if someone is in their own bedroom, hears someone downstairs, gets out their gun and goes to confront them instead of calling 911, and then shoots them after a warning, that’s wrong. It never had to come to that. How does this apply to “encounters between law-enforcement and civilians”? We have ample demonstration that some cops do not properly assess and avoid personal danger. **A very clear example is the Tamir Rice killing.** : Why couldn’t the cops have kept their guns holstered and made at least a token effort to hail the victim from several tens of yards away? The victim’s “weapon” was holstered and most insane psychopaths are not quick-draw sure-shots. If one assumes that the cops in the Rice killing were thinking rationally, we must conclude they gave little weight to the victim’s survival. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=165) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=167)