# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 169
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3361 "2015-06-08T12:20:08Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Your “middle ground” killed him. If for some reason it was critically important that he not be allowed to get up, they could have accomplished this quite safely enough by having one guy put some, but not all, of his weight on the guy’s ass. If he used his hands for this task, the guy would have lived and the cop would probably have enjoyed it. His refusal to stop resisting and obey the police killed him. > [@Kobal2](#): > > I “four guys crushed him until he was dead” is the middle ground when arresting a non-resisting, unarmed suspect ; I shudder at the thought of what constitutes the upper ground. Does it involve a blowtorch, pliers and medievalness ? A tactical nuke from low orbit ? Dunno where you get “non-resisting” from. But you want to know what would constitute an upper ground? Beating him, shooting him, breaking bones so he couldn’t do anything, bodily picking him up and throwing him (unsecured) into a police van. Not trying to restrain him and get him to cooperate. Dunno if it’s been posted yet, but I’ve just[read an article](http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/lapd-officer-convicted-in-videotaped-beating-of-handcuffed-suspect/) about how cameras have lead to the conviction of a violet police officer. I’ve not watched the video, but it seems to have convinced a jury so I’d be surprised if it didn’t convince me. But from the description, _that_ is the upper ground - punching a restrained suspect in the throat and crotch. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3362 "2015-06-08T12:26:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > His refusal to stop resisting and obey the police killed him. That is a very dangerous power to grant to police. Lethal force to get compliance is way beyond what is necessary to maintain public order. Police must be held to a standard of proportional response, or they become the problem, not the solution. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3363 "2015-06-08T12:26:37Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > … _that_ is the upper ground - punching a restrained suspect in the throat and crotch. I’m not up on bot lingo, but I think you’re saying you’ve found a line not to cross. Cops shouldn’t punch a restrained suspect in both throat and crotch. How humane of you! What’s the cop supposed to do? Pick either the throat or crotch to punch, just not both? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3364 "2015-06-08T12:47:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > His refusal to stop resisting and obey the police killed him. It was a suicide? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3365 "2015-06-08T12:56:21Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I’m not up on bot lingo, but I think you’re saying you’ve found a line not to cross. Cops shouldn’t punch a restrained suspect in both throat and crotch. How humane of you! Cops shouldn’t be using force except to effect an arrest or defend themselves. The vast majority of cases here involve them doing one, if not both, of those. > [@](#): > > What’s the cop supposed to do? Pick either the throat or crotch to punch, just not both? Well you’d have to ask the jury that, but I suspect they shouldn’t be doing either to a restrained person. If someone’s attacking them both could be acceptable. There’s no bright line, this is always acceptable, this never is rule. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3366 "2015-06-08T12:57:52Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That is a very dangerous power to grant to police. Lethal force to get compliance is way beyond what is necessary to maintain public order. Police must be held to a standard of proportional response, or they become the problem, not the solution. Sitting on someone who’s cuffed but still resisting is proportional. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3367 "2015-06-08T13:15:30Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Their job is to restrain and arrest him, not tie him up and leave him there. If you seriously want the cops to shackle people then leave them in the middle of the road, you’re an even bigger moron that most here. > > Yes, it’s difficult to stand in that position, that’s why it’s so fucking dangerous. Answer this, since no-one else can be bothered to - would you be fine with the police’s action if they cuffed him and left him there, then when attempting to stand he fell forward and broke his head? Being unable, of course, to stop his fall due to being cuffed hand foot. That situation is so obviously more dangerous that sitting on someone that it’s absurd we’re arguing about it. > > The _only_ reason the cop continued to sit on him is that he continued to resist, and that’s a safe place to be, away from flailing legs or headbutts. Notice when they got off him? When he stopped screaming and thrashing around. Had he done that in the first place, he would have been unharmed. Did I say “leave him there?” I said “step away.” (FTR, your laughter about me using the term “flop around” was weird because I was directly quoting you). It’s not just extremely difficult, but practically impossible. And we’re talking about this in the context of choosing whether to do this or sit on top of someone who claims they can’t breathe. If the suspect somehow managed to get to his feet _while leg and hand cuffed_ and then managed to hit his head hard enough on the ground to hurt himself then the police would be fine by me, as long as they’d already called for medical help because he clearly bloody needs it, or assessment for superhuman powers. At least the police would be able to see any problems he had unlike when they’re sitting on him. Sheesh. Why am I talking to you? It’s like I’m talking to a lunatic on a street corner. You are not actually clever and everyone you’ve ever met thinks “yeah, not as clever as he thinks he is,” even when they’re trying to be nice. I mean, you’re a disabled man on benefits who’s just voted for a govt that has vowed to cut your benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3368 "2015-06-08T13:52:05Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Sitting on someone who’s cuffed but still resisting is proportional. Not when it causes suffocation. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3369 "2015-06-08T14:04:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Sitting on someone who’s cuffed but still resisting is proportional. Proportional to death. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3370 "2015-06-08T14:30:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Sitting on him is the fucking middle ground. Could the guy get bound and then NOT abandoned? Couldn’t the cop have stayed but just NOT sat on him? Did they really have to kill the guy to protect him? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3371 "2015-06-08T14:32:19Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > 😕 :smack: You must be talking about a different incident. I referred [to this one](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-police-clash-teens-pool-party-about-race-says-girl-who-recorded-video/). That whole scene was horrible and infuriating. But I’m really glad they caught him on film doing that stupid drop-roll like someone on the A-Team. That said it all right there. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3372 "2015-06-08T14:46:42Z")
Heh. A coworker of my gf (ad agency) was bored and made a 30 second mock-ad for a police force. Twenty five seconds of video clips of the most outrageous police brutality scenes; pregnant woman thrown to ground, cuffed man being kicked repeatedly, peaceful protesters being pepper-sprayed, etc. The most visceral/intense things imaginable. Then, large letters, “ **STOP RESISTING** ”, smaller, “now accepting applicants for part or full time employment, stop in today!” ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3373 "2015-06-08T15:24:37Z")
Steophan, you should consider moving to the USA. Pretty much every cop bar has a glory hole out back. You could even call it a job! ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3374 "2015-06-08T15:38:03Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Ah. FTR, the gif explode page, FWIW, shows the purple shirted with his hand at his waistband behind his back - invisible to the cop. 2 frames. Not sure what point you’re trying to make here. By isolating on the time when the purple shirt guy’s hand is obscured and not the time immediately before or after are you saying this evidence isn’t despositive? I don’t believe you can conclude the hand behind the back was invisible to the cop from the video. My take is that the biggest outrage is a result of the gun draw. I think it was reasonable. Do you? ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3375 "2015-06-08T15:48:17Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Steophan, you should consider moving to the USA. Pretty much every cop bar has a glory hole out back. You could even call it a job! Who doesn’t love a good “You’re a fag.” joke in 2015. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3376 "2015-06-08T15:53:52Z")
> [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > Who doesn’t love a good “You’re a fag.” joke in 2015. 😕The salient part of that insult is pretty obviously not the genders of the participants. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3377 "2015-06-08T15:54:38Z")
> [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > Who doesn’t love a good “You’re a fag.” joke in 2015. Hey now cops aren’t exclusively gay, they also ask for blowjobs from female arrests! ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3378 "2015-06-08T15:55:48Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > 😕The salient part of that insult is pretty obviously not the genders of the participants. Yea “cop fellator” isn’t really a gay insult. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3379 "2015-06-08T16:11:39Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > 😕The salient part of that insult is pretty obviously not the genders of the participants. > [@grude](#): > > Hey now cops aren’t exclusively gay, they also ask for blowjobs from female arrests! > [@grude](#): > > Yea “cop fellator” isn’t really a gay insult. yeah… sure… let’s go with that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3380 "2015-06-08T16:15:18Z")
While fellatio is a common practice amongst gay men, it is also relatively common amongst unmarried straight women. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=168) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=170)