# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 173
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3441 "2015-06-09T16:36:05Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > I confess that a couple of days ago, when I first watched the video after reading a brief description, I gasped when that McKinney cop pulled his gun. It was a true, “oh no” moment for me. Glad no one was shot. > > Contrast that to the photo of the motorcycle gangsters sitting around joking and playing with their smart phones as the cop stood by with his automatic rifle, not even watching them. At the Twin Peaks brouhaha, the Texas LEO’s had rifles, and they were supported by other Texas officers with rifles. How far do you believe the 1%'s could run before they were brought down? Outside of the McKinney pool, an officer was trying to arrest the girl in the yellow bikini. Two large males, they both appeared larger than the cop, ran up to the officer while he was kneeling. I suppose it could be assumed that the two males were only there to offer assistance to the officer? :rolleyes: It must never be assumed that the two males were there to attack the officer, or free yellow bikini girl. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3442 "2015-06-09T16:48:44Z")
> [@planetcory](#): > > For context: > > [Here’s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZjHwOHFJGk)girl who organized the party. > > [Here’s](http://cw33.com/2015/06/08/15-year-old-who-shot-mckinney-pool-party-video-speaks-out/#ooid=ByaDFrdTpafiZZnNzVKWju7zDgLmPqXH) the kid who shot the video. For context: _Fight At McKinney Texas Pool Party That Led To Police Coming_ - [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpnQQFy3sxs) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3443 "2015-06-09T18:23:44Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Did you finally get promoted to fifth grade this year? :rolleyes: That was a while ago, but don’t worry - someday you’ll make it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3444 "2015-06-09T18:34:08Z")
Quiet, son, the adults are having a discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3445 "2015-06-09T18:38:29Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Do you really believe that’s what happened? [Look at the video.](https://youtu.be/R46-XTqXkzE?t=2m24s) > > At 2:22 the cop tells the group of 6 people to leave. He indicates this is a repeated command that probably happened earlier that I didn’t catch. Between that time mark, and at 2:46 he tells the group 8 times to leave. At 2:51 he decides to arrest the girl in the yellow bikini for something. It looks like it was for not dispersing as ordered. I could see the reason being interpreted as her mouthing off to the officer, but I cant tell what is said. The video I saw starts with a cop doing a body roll in front of the camera. It looks like he tripped and recovered quickly enough to roll into the fall. He is running towards some sort of disturbance about half a block away. Then the we see a cop (might be the same cop) detaining black boys at the instruction of a white man, perhaps he is the pool security guard and pointing out the troublemakers. The boys lay down and sit down without too much trouble and give the cops very little lip and the cop berates them for screwing around making him chase them. Then the cops commands a bunch of girls to stop running their mouths and leave. Some girls leave and other stay and continue to run their mouths. The cop goes into the crowd of girls and drags one of them out. He wrestles her to the ground and throws her onto the pavement and when other kids approach in what appears to be outrage at her treatment, he pulls his gun and chases them away even as two other cops pull him back and chase the boys (without guns drawn). Then the cop goes back to the girl who is sitting down (like many of the other boys he has detained (except she is now crying for her mother) and orders her onto her face (apparently not because he is afraid of what she might do but because he is just pissed off) and he grabs her by her hair and shoves her face into the ground… repeatedly. Then he sits on her back. Its odd that all the white kids are walking around and all the black kids are on the ground but that’s probably just coincidence. In what world is it OK for the cop to treat a teenage girl like that for mouthing off and not dispersing? > [@](#): > > Is it relevant that that the police officer is a man in this scenario? Woulda female police officer taking the same action be less objectionable, more, or the same? Does the girl’s state of clothing make a difference here? She was resisting. He escalated force to detain her. He could have tased her I guess but that didn’t seem necessary. When I say full grown man, I am focusing more on his size and strength than gender. I don’t think he was sexually assaulting her, just plain old assault. The girl’s state of clothing plus her size means she is probably not a physical threat to the cop and should not be treated like a suspect that poses a physical threat. Throwing someone to the pavement and shoving their face in the ground by their hair is something that is usually reserved for adults that pose some sort of physical threat or that have attacked the officer (and insolent cop wives), not usually appropriate for girls in bikinis that have done nothing more than mouthing off. She did not attack him, he went into a crowd of girls and dragged her out. > [@](#): > > If it was not a lawful command then he’d probably be dealt with administrativley. He would pretty clearly enjoy qualified immunity in this situation. What qualified immunity? What police power gives cops immunity for using unnecessary force in subduing someone who didn’t do anything wrong? I agree he probably won’t go to jail but I don’t see why he can’t be sued. I don’t see why the police department can’t be sued. I don’t see why the city can’t be sued. > [@](#): > > At 3:11 in the video I linked, the purple shirt wearing guy has both his hands at his own waist area after rapidly approaching the officer trying to detain the girl. Purple shirt guy’s left leg extends toward the officer. He’s possibly 3 feet away from him at that point. Are you fucking kidding me? The cop didn’t even see that and even if he did that is pretty thin rationale for drawing a gun (unless you think that everyone in the vicinity of a cop must keep his hands laced behind their heads). The next cop runs up next to him and grabs his arm (as if to tell him to put the goddam gun away). But I don’t know what happened before that might have put the cops in a heightened state of alert and made it appropriate to draw a gun but it seems like an overreaction. I’ve had cops pull guns on me a couple of times for fairly innocuous things (running a stop sign in a bad neighborhood, getting into an argument outside a bar), it really got my attention and compliance but otherwise not emotionally scarring especially if they only point it at you for a little while so while I think it was probably inappropriate, I would scoff at any controversy if that is all that happened, but in this case it is just another indication of a cop out of control. > [@](#): > > Police have the power to control the scene, at times that can extend to public places like sidewalks, etc. That could extend to ordering people to leave public places they may otherwise have a right to be in. > > I don’t think there is a hard and fast rule as to the distance that must exist between bystanders and police activity, but from the video the scenario appeared pretty out of hand with a mix of involved and not involved people mulling about haphazardly. I mean, that same girl that later gets arrested (yellow bikini) is seen strolling between the same officer and other groups of people who had already been ordered to the ground (1:20). The whole scenario was not in control at the beginning. > > As to why that girl was singled out, I have no idea. The audio isn’t clear for me at that point in the video. Bad luck on her part maybe. It looks like mouthing off to a rogue cop is what got her thrown around. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3446 "2015-06-09T18:46:15Z")
So don’t mouth off to cops, then. It’s remarkably easy. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3447 "2015-06-09T18:49:26Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I think you’re having a problem separating the interaction with different groups of people. The boys parked on the grass towards the person taking the video had already been detained in that they were not free to leave. The fact that there were some people detained and others not detained does not indicate that the cop was not interested in dispersing people. It’s entirely reasonable to detain some folks, and disperse others. This is an obvious equivocation. > > Does this mean you’re sticking to your assertion that the cop was _‘telling them to leave while also telling them to get on the ground, face down.’_? So why was it OK for the boys (who apparently did something that warranted being detained) to be sitting down but the girl had to be face down in the grass? Why was it so important that she be face down that he grabbed her hair and shoved her face in the dirt AFTER he had her down? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3448 "2015-06-09T18:51:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So don’t mouth off to cops, then. It’s remarkably easy. Fuck that shit, we’ve got freedom of speech. If the cops don’t like the first amendment, they can try to get police work in some undemocratic country. If I want to tell a cop he’s got piggie ears and a fat face, it’s my right to do so. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3449 "2015-06-09T18:52:46Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So don’t mouth off to cops, then. It’s remarkably easy. Isn’t it just as easy for cops to bite their tongues and walk away, as they often should? Given their power to kill and their legal authority, isn’t it far more \*incumbent \*upon them to do so in those cases? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3450 "2015-06-09T18:54:38Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > I just saw the video for Tough Guy and Bikini Girl. What a shame, that that community has lost the supreme crime fighting skills that Tough Guy brought to the force! What a fucking asshole, loser, part-of-the-problem-and-not-part-of-the-solution this jackass is. > Way to jump all over Bikini Girl, Tough guy! Their full names are “Law & Order Tough Guy” and “Uppity Bikini Girl” True story. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3451 "2015-06-09T18:55:38Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Again, nonsense. It’s the leftist version of Conservapedia, and should be given no more credence. Bullshit. Politically, RationalWiki is actually rather critical-of-all-sides – check the various pages on socialism, communism and Marxism; it is “leftist” only in the sense that belief in evolution or global warming is “leftist,” which gives it, on those kinds of issues, a great deal more credence than Conservapeida. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3452 "2015-06-09T19:00:00Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > No where in the video does the cop “wave his gun”. It doesn’t help your cause if you misstate what is obvious. Just like the initial news stories saying the cop drew his weapon on the girl. This is not what happened just as much as the cop “waving his gun” is not what happened. A lot of ignorant people mistake sweeping a gun across a crowd of teenagers as waving a gun at a bunch of teenagers. Its a common mistake. > [@](#): > > I don’t think the situation was handled optimally - but it seems reasonable to me. It’s the folks that make every scenario an occasion to be outraged that weakens the ire over legitimate police abuses. Or your tolerance for police misbehavior is much higher than others. Its a 14 year old girl being thrown to the ground grabbed by the hair and having her face shoved into the ground. WTF? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3453 "2015-06-09T19:04:48Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Fuck that shit, we’ve got freedom of speech. If the cops don’t like the first amendment, they can try to get police work in some undemocratic country. If I want to tell a cop he’s got piggie ears and a fat face, it’s my right to do so. And it’s his right to find some flimsy, but legal, pretext to detain you when otherwise he wouldn’t have done. You don’t have freedom from the consequences of your speech. Treat someone with respect, and you’ll get respect back 99% of the time. Treat them like a dick, and you’ll get dickishness back, unless the person you’re being a dick to is the better person. You have nothing to gain, and plenty to lose, by being a dick to the wrong people. Don’t do it. It’s not only the wrong thing to do to disrespect a representative of a democratic government, but it’s fucking stupid to piss off someone with handcuff, weapons, and the right to use them on you. And don’t try to tell me that if you’re in the situation of insulting a cop, you haven’t broken some minor law or other. You will have done, apart from anything else you’re disrupting police work. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3454 "2015-06-09T19:07:05Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Okay. Without the gun draw I don’t think this is a story. It was the lead headline in all reports of the incident. If that’s not the largest outrage, what do you think is? I disagree I think without the girl being thrown to the ground and having her face shoved in the ground, this is not a story. Cops draw their guns all the time in crappy neighborhoods. A cop drawing a gun but not firing on a bunch of black teenage boys would be a non-story. We would assume they were miscreants and needed the threat of a gun to behave. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3455 "2015-06-09T19:09:11Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So don’t mouth off to cops, then. It’s remarkably easy. Being able to mouth off to cops is what makes America great. Our cops have police power, not police state power. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3456 "2015-06-09T19:11:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And it’s his right to find some flimsy, but legal, pretext to detain you when otherwise he wouldn’t have done. You don’t have freedom from the consequences of your speech. This is incorrect as a matter of law. Detaining someone for a pretextual purpose when your real motivation was to punish their speech is unconstitutional. Of course, most cops know this, so they will certainly testify that they would have arrested the person regardless of the speech. But when that testimony would be false–as it would be in your hypothetical here–then they’ve merely saved themselves through perjury from facing the consequences of their actions. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3457 "2015-06-09T19:21:25Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And it’s his right to find some flimsy, but legal, pretext to detain you when otherwise he wouldn’t have done. You keep lecturing us on US law. You’re doing great. Thumbs up! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3458 "2015-06-09T19:21:53Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > This is incorrect as a matter of law. Detaining someone for a pretextual purpose when your real motivation was to punish their speech is unconstitutional. Of course, most cops know this, so they will certainly testify that they would have arrested the person regardless of the speech. But when that testimony would be false–as it would be in your hypothetical here–then they’ve merely saved themselves through perjury from facing the consequences of their actions. They wouldn’t be detaining them to punish them, they’d be detaining them for whatever crime they’d committed. It’s just fortunate that, by insulting the cop, he drew police attention to the crime he’d committed, and so was caught. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3459 "2015-06-09T19:23:42Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > You keep lecturing us on US law. You’re doing great. > > Thumbs up! Thanks, it’s nice to be recognised for my work. You keep pretending that the law is, in fact, what you in your ignorance think it should be. You’re doing a damn good job of that. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3460 "2015-06-09T19:26:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > They wouldn’t be detaining them to punish them, they’d be detaining them for whatever crime they’d committed. It’s just fortunate that, by insulting the cop, he drew police attention to the crime he’d committed, and so was caught. You evidently don’t know what the word “pretext” means. If, as you said, the officer “find[s] some flimsy, but legal, pretext to detain you when otherwise he wouldn’t have done,” that is the quintessential case of retaliatory conduct. Indeed, it is virtually the language from the proper jury instruction. Naturally, an officer might testify along the lines you write here. But that would be perjury if the truth was that he merely found “some flimsy, but legal, pretext to detain you when otherwise he wouldn’t have done.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=172) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=174)