# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 179
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3561 "2015-06-11T14:57:33Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Well said. What galls me is that a group of cops decide to recreate the Bonnie and Clyde killings and because the coroner can’t determine which bullet fired by which cop was the cause of death, nobody has to answer for their deaths. That’s nuts. I’m not clear on why the ruling can’t be appealed. If he was found guilty, defense could certainly appeal and base their argument that the judge decided wrongly for whatever reason. Why isn’t prosecution afforded the same? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3562 "2015-06-11T15:05:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > You’re using “kill” and “execute” interchangeably and you shouldn’t. You’re not alone in this, I note. No, I’m not, quite the opposite. These killings, whether legal or otherwise, are not executions are not performed by the state, so they are not executions. > [@](#): > > And of course these people are killed as an exercise of state power. The state hires and arms police officers with that possibility in mind. Nope. The killings are either legal in self defence or defence of another, or illegal. In neither case are they an execution, an illegal execution being a contradiction in terms. Much like a legal murder. The police are not allowed to kill people as punishment, ever, so no killing by them can be an execution. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3563 "2015-06-11T15:09:15Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > When cops fire over 100 rounds of ammo into a car occupied by two unarmed people who did not attempt to use their vehicle as a weapon, and one bastard jumps on the hood, reloads and empties the clip into their already pretty much dead bodies, this is an execution. The fact that the state then said ‘no harm no foul’ makes it an exercise of State Power, as the outright murder of those citizens was condoned and made legal by state decision. If it’s condoned and legal, it’s by definition not murder. If it’s the case I’m thinking of, I don’t know where you get the idea they weren’t trying to ram the cops… Did they have some other reason for driving towards them and not stopping? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3564 "2015-06-11T15:10:23Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > I’m not clear on why the ruling can’t be appealed. If he was found guilty, defense could certainly appeal and base their argument that the judge decided wrongly for whatever reason. Why isn’t prosecution afforded the same? Double jeopardy laws. But the obvious reason not to appeal is that the police actually did nothing wrong in shooting at the people trying to kill them. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3565 "2015-06-11T15:16:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, I’m not, quite the opposite. These killings, whether legal or otherwise, are not executions are not performed by the state, so they are not executions. Yes, which is why the terms should not be used interchangeably, as I said. > [@](#): > > Nope. The killings are either legal in self defence or defence of another, or illegal. In neither case are they an execution, an illegal execution being a contradiction in terms. Much like a legal murder. > > The police are not allowed to kill people as punishment, ever, so no killing by them can be an execution. Not every killing by a state agent is an execution. Not every killing by a state agent is justifiable. ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3566 "2015-06-11T15:24:55Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Well said. What galls me is that a group of cops decide to recreate the Bonnie and Clyde killings and because the coroner can’t determine which bullet fired by which cop was the cause of death, nobody has to answer for their deaths. That’s nuts. The weird thing is that in the US they lock people up for murder who were at the scene but didn’t actually commit the murder. Please correct me if I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3567 "2015-06-11T16:16:51Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Double jeopardy laws. I don’t see how it’s double jeopardy if he was exonerated through misapplication of law. If that’s the case, he wasn’t exonerated, but let off by a rogue or misguided judge. Here is a list of appeals the prosecution is attempting to make to the record: [http://www.cleveland.com/court-justice/index.ssf/2015/05/cuyahoga\_county\_prosecutor\_say\_1.html](http://www.cleveland.com/court-justice/index.ssf/2015/05/cuyahoga_county_prosecutor_say_1.html) > [@](#): > > ``` > Misinterpreting a legal test for determining who causes a death, and concluding that it was impossible to determine that Brelo fired the fatal shots; > Wrongly applying the law that determines when an officer is justified in using deadly force; and > Considering the wrong lesser-included offense. O'Donnell considered felonious assault. Prosecutors argued the correct lesser offenses in this case are attempted voluntary manslaughter and aggravated assault. > > ``` > [@Steophan](#): > > But the obvious reason not to appeal is that the police actually did nothing wrong in shooting at the people trying to kill them. Umm…they weren’t trying to kill anyone. You’re inventing facts to confirm your own biases. To combat ignorance, here’s what happened: They fled from a traffic stop. As they were driving by a police station, their car backfired causing other cops to think it was a gunshot (at that time unknown to the officers that the couple fled a traffic stop) which fueled the chase. As the couple attempted to flee in their car, they sideswiped a cruiser, then came to a stop. At that point police opened fire. It can be argued that at no point did that couple attempt to kill an officer. They attempted to flee at one point and it’s possible they would have again, perhaps putting any officers in the way in peril, but there was no imminent threat to the officers’ lives. [http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/05/cleveland-officer-michael-brelo-137-shots-trial](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/05/cleveland-officer-michael-brelo-137-shots-trial) ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3568 "2015-06-11T16:19:37Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > When cops fire over 100 rounds of ammo into a car occupied by two unarmed people who did not attempt to use their vehicle as a weapon, and one bastard jumps on the hood, reloads and empties the clip into their already pretty much dead bodies, this is an execution. The judge disagreed. Do you have access to some secret evidence that the trial judge was not privy to? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3569 "2015-06-11T16:51:30Z")
Is this the “Belo” case? Did the evil and felonious perpetrators have police permission to die, or were they simply hoping to cast the noble officers in the worst possible light? We may note that they were encouraged to die, by the introduction of multiple bullet wounds onto their person, but did they apply for and receive any direct authorization to do so? Of course, emptying one clip and then inserting another might be tacitly understood as a firm suggestion… ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3570 "2015-06-11T17:03:00Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Is this the “Belo” case? Did the evil and felonious perpetrators have police permission to die, or were they simply hoping to cast the noble officers in the worst possible light? We may note that they were encouraged to die, by the introduction of multiple bullet wounds onto their person, but did they apply for and receive any direct authorization to do so? Of course, emptying one clip and then inserting another might be tacitly understood as a firm suggestion… Iirc, emptying the gun a second time was in response to the perps dying w/o permission. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3571 "2015-06-11T17:08:53Z")
Ah! So, sort of a very direct form of a “cease and desist” order? Sounds perfectly legit to me, but I will defer to our resident legal experts. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3572 "2015-06-11T17:14:45Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Then I’m sure you’ll have no problem finding me a link showing under what circumstances our overlords in blue can give me orders and when they can’t and which orders I’m obliged to obey and which are unreasonable. This is not a trivial question. As a general principle, the police have the right to approach you and talk to you for any reason they please, and you have the right to ignore them and go about your business. So if that happens, there are no orders involved. An order implies an interference with your liberty, and for the police to do that, even slightly, generally requires that the police have at least a _reasonable, articulable suspicion_ of criminal activity. There are some variations to this general rule, however. In some federal circuits, if a completed misdemeanor is the criminal activity in question, and the police did not see the misdemeanor take place, they may not detain you. Other federal circuits permit a detention for reasonable suspicion of a completed misdemeanor. A brief detention of a car and driver to enforce DUI laws is permitted even without reasonable, articulable suspicion. But your question goes to a slightly different place: are you obliged to obey an order that seizes you even if the police do not have the requisite level of suspicion. Put more simply: do you have the right to resist an unlawful seizure or an unlawful arrest? There are fifty states with fifty nuanced answers, but the trend is: no. You have the right to self-defense against a police officer’s illegal attack, but not his use of the level of force legally acceptable to accomplish an arrest…_even if the underlying arrest is illegal_. Cites for any of the above specific propositions are available on request. ---
**Author:** ![Hooleehootoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eada6e/32.png) [@Hooleehootoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hooleehootoo)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3573 "2015-06-11T17:49:34Z")
Bricker, did you happen to look at the video liked in post #3085 ? A man is in sitting in his car in a motel parking lot and LEO’s ask him for ID. I thought somewhere in the discussion of the Daniele Watts case it was claimed that there are differences between Terry Stops while in a car and not in a car. Was this man required to show the LEOs a DL ? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3574 "2015-06-11T18:06:21Z")
Thank you for the answers, Bricker. I defer to your professional knowledge, but as a layman I don’t agree that I have to abide by unwarranted or unreasonable orders from the police and that resisting an illegal arrest shouldn’t be a violation. That’s just my opinion and it may be at odds with the law but if a cop comes up to me and says I’m taking you in because you’re got blue eyes then I should be able to resist that arrest. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3575 "2015-06-11T18:18:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There are fifty states with fifty nuanced answers, but the trend is: no. You have the right to self-defense against a police officer’s illegal attack, but not his use of the level of force legally acceptable to accomplish an arrest…_even if the underlying arrest is illegal_. > . Bingo. The idea that you should be able to physically resist arrest just leads to violence and madness. You can make the arrest easy on yourself or hard. But is there some underlying logic that if you fight hard enough or bitch and moan enough that maybe the cop should let you go? The place to “resist” an illegal (in YOUR opinion) arrest is in the legal system, not the streets. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3576 "2015-06-11T18:34:57Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Thank you for the answers, Bricker. I defer to your professional knowledge, but as a layman I don’t agree that I have to abide by unwarranted or unreasonable orders from the police and that resisting an illegal arrest shouldn’t be a violation. That’s just my opinion and it may be at odds with the law but if a cop comes up to me and says I’m taking you in because you’re got blue eyes then I should be able to resist that arrest. No, you shouldn’t. You should be able to challenge that arrest in court later. The fact is, you simply don’t know at the point of arrest whether it’s valid or not - indeed, you _can’t_ know. You can, of course, resist _unreasonable_ force - such as, to use a lovely example people on this board like making, the cop tries to force you to give him a blow job. But if he tries to restrain you to make an arrest, or orders you to get out of his way so he can do his job, you may not, and should not be allowed to, refuse. I don’t really get why anyone would have a problem with this, either. They are going to arrest you whether you resist or not, even if that arrest is illegal. Why would you want to make things worse for yourself? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3577 "2015-06-11T18:37:11Z")
No one’s mentioned [the case of Nehemiah Fischer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs4O-76oZSI), shot dead two weeks ago in Oklmulgee, Oklahoma. Apparently police were eager to counter allegations they only kill sassy hos and thugs wearing hoodies, so they killed a gentle white-skinned pastor. Details seem sketchy; AFAICT police haven’t yet remembered whether the victim was brandishing a gun. In the video you can hear troopers shouting “Come on, get out of that water, Let’s go” over and over and over. I know that would irritate me. Perhaps it was the inane incessant shouting that irritated Nehemiah or his brother Brandon so much they needed to be shot. In another twist of post-rational American Exceptionalness, [the original purpose of cops’ intervention was to save the brothers’ life!](http://kfor.com/2015/06/01/father-looking-for-answers-after-son-was-killed-by-oklahoma-trooper-during-high-water-rescue/) ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3578 "2015-06-11T18:38:08Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > The place to “resist” an illegal (in YOUR opinion) arrest is in the legal system, not the streets. There is certainly the right to resist an unlawful arrest in the USA. “When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense, his assailant is killed, he is justified.” Runyan v. State, 57 Ind. 80; Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1. “These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence.” Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903. “An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260). “Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense.” (State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100). “One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910). [http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm](http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm) Of course, as they say, > [@](#): > > As a practical matter one should try to avoid relying on the above in an actual confrontation with law enforcement agents, who are likely not to know or care about any of it. In the real world, even if an arrest is completely unlawful, resisting in any manner most likely means the innocent party will be dead or seriously injured, and the criminal will go free. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3579 "2015-06-11T18:38:38Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Umm…they weren’t trying to kill anyone. You’re inventing facts to confirm your own biases. Your own quote says otherwise, unless you think that driving into someone’s car isn’t potentially lethal. Which would be a silly thing to think. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3580 "2015-06-11T18:41:05Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > No one’s mentioned [the case of Nehemiah Fischer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs4O-76oZSI), shot dead two weeks ago in Oklmulgee, Oklahoma. Apparently police were eager to counter allegations they only kill sassy hos and thugs wearing hoodies, so they killed a gentle white-skinned pastor. While your sarcasm is evident, police have always killed any color of person when they resist. Age, sex or mental state, race, religion or appearance, it really doesn’t matter. If you don’t submit, you will die, or be seriously injured. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=178) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=180)