# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/341 "2014-12-09T06:10:12Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > “Just one week after [FOX31 Denver](http://kdvr.com/2014/12/05/punching-cop-promoted-after-fox31-denver-report/) first aired a citizen’s videotape of a police officer punching a drug suspect in the face, then tripping his pregnant girlfriend, the Denver Police Department has given that same officer a promotion.” To be fair, how could his superiors know anything improper had happened? After the police confiscated his tablet and deleted his video, there was nothing to see anymore. If there’s not already, there needs to be an app that automatically uploads video to a remote location so the police can’t cover up their crimes. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/342 "2014-12-09T12:32:58Z")
Police shootings in Philadelphia have [dropped precipitously](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20141126_Police_policies_cut_deadly_shootings.html#R5fJHdBvppaTkP47.99) this year, largely due to a “shake-up” in training and tactics. This is just one example, and one year, but it might show that cops can adequately protect themselves while shooting and killing fewer people. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/343 "2014-12-09T12:45:19Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > If there’s not already, there needs to be an app that automatically uploads video to a remote location so the police can’t cover up their crimes. Thanks, Apple! (iCloud) ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/344 "2014-12-09T13:57:41Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > [Arizona cop caught on cam](http://thefreethoughtproject.com/arizona-cop-brutally-attacks-teen-girl-mother-begs-stop/) brutally attacking teen girl while mother begs them to stop. > > “Luis Paul Santiago, the witness who filmed the violent encounter stated that police attempted to delete the video, and the second officer on the scene explained that the officer “behaved correctly” and stated that “if she needed to, she could have shot her dead.”” ?? I didn’t see any brutal attack in that video. I saw an officer (seemingly female) trying to get a young woman handcuffed. If there was punching, hitting, kicking, choking I missed it. My assumption is that the “teen” was not willing to be handcuffed – and that wrestling a young woman to the ground wasn’t the officer’s first choice. If the cops tried to get rid of the video, shame on them. If someone has incorrectly described this as a “brutal attack” to score cheap narrative points, shame on them. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/345 "2014-12-09T14:07:34Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > If there’s not already, there needs to be an app that automatically uploads video to a remote location so the police can’t cover up their crimes. Just use WhatsApp or some other messaging service, and be sure that the group includes people from out of town. Or your lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/346 "2014-12-09T16:44:00Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > ?? I didn’t see any brutal attack in that video. I saw an officer (seemingly female) trying to get a young woman handcuffed. If there was punching, hitting, kicking, choking I missed it. > > My assumption is that the “teen” was not willing to be handcuffed – and that wrestling a young woman to the ground wasn’t the officer’s first choice. > > If the cops tried to get rid of the video, shame on them. If someone has incorrectly described this as a “brutal attack” to score cheap narrative points, shame on them. The officer punched the girl in the face twice, at the 2 and 3 second mark. > [@](#): > > Just watched mesa PD punch a 15 year old girl in the face 2 times she was a runaway is this rely how we treat emotionally unstable teens? The cops wanted to delete this off my phone share the fuck out of this shit ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/347 "2014-12-09T18:07:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Police shootings in Philadelphia have [dropped precipitously](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20141126_Police_policies_cut_deadly_shootings.html#R5fJHdBvppaTkP47.99) this year, largely due to a “shake-up” in training and tactics. This is just one example, and one year, but it might show that cops can adequately protect themselves while shooting and killing fewer people. Just to ask the question that will inevitably be asked–how was the crime rate during that interval? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/348 "2014-12-09T18:21:31Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Just to ask the question that will inevitably be asked–how was the crime rate during that interval? [Here](http://www.phillypolice.com/crime-maps-stats/). At least for homicides, it looks to have gone down significantly from 2012 to 2013, but is back up a little bit from 2013 to 2014. So it doesn’t seem to track the lowered police shootings. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/349 "2014-12-09T19:19:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [Here](http://www.phillypolice.com/crime-maps-stats/). At least for homicides, it looks to have gone down significantly from 2012 to 2013, but is back up a little bit from 2013 to 2014. So it doesn’t seem to track the lowered police shootings. So the homicide rate is down about 25% in 2013 and then up 4% in 2014. Meanwhile the “cops killing people rate” is down 25% in 2013 and then down 75% in 2014. I’d call that a success for better training of police officers. Add cameras and vigorous prosecutions of bad cops, and we might have a solution for this whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/350 "2014-12-09T20:00:24Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > So the homicide rate is down about 25% in 2013 and then up 4% in 2014. Meanwhile the “cops killing people rate” is down 25% in 2013 and then down 75% in 2014. I’d call that a success for better training of police officers. Add cameras and vigorous prosecutions of bad cops, and we might have a solution for this whole thing. Sounds good to me! ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/351 "2014-12-09T22:34:09Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > The officer punched the girl in the face twice, at the 2 and 3 second mark. I was watching in bed with the sound off. Pardon. The soundtrack made the action much clearer. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/352 "2014-12-10T14:56:35Z")
[Another taped encounter with cops that involves unnecessary conflict, unnecessary violence.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62bFlzU2Jks) And of course the cop-defenders will insist that the two guys should’ve just turned over their ID’s like good little boys and no harm would’ve come to them. But this ignores the fact that there was no probable cause to demand their IDs in the first place. This is a clear example of cops picking a fight for no valid reasons. But at least the cops didn’t shoot anyone. Whew. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/353 "2014-12-10T15:38:03Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > And of course the cop-defenders will insist that the two guys should’ve just turned over their ID’s like good little boys and no harm would’ve come to them. But this ignores the fact that there was no probable cause to demand their IDs in the first place. This is a clear example of cops picking a fight for no valid reasons. Yes, obviously they should have handed them over and challenged it in court later. You, or they, as private citizens don’t get to determine what constitutes probable cause, the police and later the courts make that decision. Watching the video, it’s clear that one of the brothers used force on the police, but not the other - so the latter should not have been hit. The first, though, it was reasonable. Not having seen what lead to the police following them to the restaurant, and whether there where any driving offences, makes it impossible to say there was no probable cause IMHO. Looks like wrongdoing, and assault, by one cop and one of the brothers to me. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/354 "2014-12-10T15:41:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, obviously they should have handed them over and challenged it in court later. You, or they, as private citizens don’t get to determine what constitutes probable cause, the police and later the courts make that decision. They did take it to court, according to what I’ve read on another message board. Charges against the two bros were dropped and it was determined excessive force was used. Cops had no probable cause. ETA. The one brother you’re talking about was clearly pushed by the cop. When he responded by raising his hands, the cop swung on both bros. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/355 "2014-12-10T16:41:18Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > They did take it to court, according to what I’ve read on another message board. Charges against the two bros were dropped and it was determined excessive force was used. Cops had no probable cause. Yep, charges were dropped: [http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/23365483/update-charges-dropped-against-brothers-in-video-of-questionable-excessive-police-force](http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/23365483/update-charges-dropped-against-brothers-in-video-of-questionable-excessive-police-force) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/356 "2014-12-10T16:45:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, obviously they should have handed them over and challenged it in court later. You, or they, as private citizens don’t get to determine what constitutes probable cause, the police and later the courts make that decision. > > Watching the video, it’s clear that one of the brothers used force on the police, but not the other - so the latter should not have been hit. The first, though, it was reasonable. > > Not having seen what lead to the police following them to the restaurant, and whether there where any driving offences, makes it impossible to say there was no probable cause IMHO. > > Looks like wrongdoing, and assault, by one cop and one of the brothers to me. This must have been a confusing story for you. The brothers were clearly engaged in self-defense, which generally causes you to start masturbating in glee. But they were black and unarmed, so they should have been shot to death. So confusing. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/357 "2014-12-10T17:06:59Z")
Are these charges true? [QUOTE=[Tamir Rice’s mom says police threatened to detain her after an officer shot her son | Vox](http://www.vox.com/2014/12/8/7354851/samaria-rice-police-shooting)] Cleveland Police officers tackled and handcuffed Tamir Rice’s 14-year-old sister shortly after she arrived at the scene where an officer previously shot and killed her brother, Rice’s mother told reporters on Monday. Samaria Rice, the mother of both children, said officers threatened to put her in the back of a police car if she didn’t calm down in the minutes after a Cleveland Police officer shot and killed her son. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/358 "2014-12-10T17:15:51Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > This must have been a confusing story for you. The brothers were clearly engaged in self-defense, which generally causes you to start masturbating in glee. But they were black and unarmed, so they should have been shot to death. So confusing. Certainly the second brother was, and I’ve already said that the cop who punched him should have been charged with assault for hitting him. The first, I’m not so sure. If he was resisting a legitimate police request, then the officer had the right to lay hands on him, which doesn’t make what he did self defence. It’s not necessarily black and white, so to speak. There can be right and wrong on both “sides”, and in this case it looks like there was. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/359 "2014-12-10T17:19:38Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Are these charges true? Story from real life: the father of a friend of mine died in his car. Not sure the exact cause, but it was likely a brain aneurysm; he started feeling strange and went to sit down in his car and closed his eyes and never woke up. Anyway, when his wife found out she ran outside to see him. The police, EMT, etc. were there and were keeping her away from the car. She was obviously distraught and was trying to get past them to see him, and a cop pushed her to the ground. This was a 55+ year old woman who weighed maybe 90 lbs who had just found out her husband died, and some stupid asshole decided the best way to handle the situation would be to throw her to the ground. So I don’t see anything particularly unlikely about the story. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/360 "2014-12-10T17:28:05Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Certainly If he was resisting a legitimate police request, then the officer had the right to lay hands on him… Um, no he didn’t have that right. Cops can request anything they want, but unless it’s a stop-and-identify state ([which Michigan isn’t](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes)), citizens have the constitutional right to refuse showing ID. While it’s great the charges were dropped for the two guys, one must wonder what disciplinary actions–if any–were taken against the cops. And how many times have they done this thing before and gotten away with it. And how many times will they do it in the future. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=19)