# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 180
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3581 "2015-06-11T18:42:31Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > if a cop comes up to me and says I’m taking you in because you’re got blue eyes then I should be able to resist that arrest. > [@Steophan](#): > > They are going to arrest you whether you resist or not, even if that arrest is illegal. Why would you want to make things worse for yourself? This. What do you hope to gain by resisting an arrest that YOU consider unlawful? Do you honestly think if you resist enough, they are NOT going to arrest you? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3582 "2015-06-11T18:58:33Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This. What do you hope to gain by resisting an arrest that YOU consider unlawful? Do you honestly think if you resist enough, they are NOT going to arrest you? If they rough you up and someone captures it on camera, you get to bring down the police department. If you simply fight it in court, nobody knows and they’re free to get the next guy. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3583 "2015-06-11T19:03:53Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If they rough you up and someone captures it on camera, you get to bring down the police department. Is potentially dying worth “bringing down the police department”? Would you rather be right, or alive? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3584 "2015-06-11T19:04:06Z")
Depends. Do you have a waistband? At any point in time, did your hand move in the direction of your waistband? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3585 "2015-06-11T19:04:33Z")
> [@Hooleehootoo](#): > > Bricker, did you happen to look at the video liked in post #3085 ? A man is in sitting in his car in a motel parking lot and LEO’s ask him for ID. I thought somewhere in the discussion of the Daniele Watts case it was claimed that there are differences between Terry Stops while in a car and not in a car. > > Was this man required to show the LEOs a DL ? In general, when you get behind the controls of a motor vehicle, you implicitly cede some of your rights to privacy. If an officer pulls you over, not providing them with your ID could be grounds for arrest, on suspicion of driving without a license, theft, whatever. The guy showed the officer his ID. That should be sufficient. If the officer wanted to further investigate, he could have written down the info and run it through the system to establish whether there was an issue. But you are not required to otherwise communicate with the police. You in fact have the right to say nothing, even before the read you that. It would probably piss them off a bit, but they cannot compel you to speak. Ever. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3586 "2015-06-11T19:09:00Z")
I’m very much troubled by the idea that it doesn’t matter what a police officer tells me to do, I’m obligated by the law to do it. I’m even more troubled that people think this kind of submission is okay. It is very easy for someone to impersonate a police officer. I’d like to think everyone would be okay with someone resisting being kidnapped from someone with criminal intent. But I dunno. Seems like what **Steophan** is teling me is that I can’t trust my gut or my instinct by running away any thug who just happens to be wearing a blue uniform. If someone looks like a cop, I’m supposed to let him render me immobile and force me into the back of his vehicle with nary a peep or scream. Or else, I’m the bad guy. How does a government become fascist? They put psychopaths in uniforms and then make it against the law to ever resist them. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3587 "2015-06-11T19:10:10Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If they rough you up and someone captures it on camera, you get to bring down the police department. If you simply fight it in court, nobody knows and they’re free to get the next guy. How do you bring down the police department without fighting it in court? And while fighting it in court, you find out that the police DID in fact have a reason to arrest you, so not only did you get your ass kicked by the police, you are now on trial for resisting arrest. All this for the slim chance that you can “bring down the police department”? I mean really, there are videos of unarmed people getting shot to death, and THAT didn’t “bring down the police department” You think a video of you getting roughed up in what may or may not be an illegal arrest is going to do it? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3588 "2015-06-11T19:11:00Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If they rough you up and someone captures it on camera, you get to bring down the police department. If you simply fight it in court, nobody knows and they’re free to get the next guy. Not if you’re resisting them, you don’t. If they rough you up and you’re not resisting, and people find out about it, things change. That’s why peaceful protests occasionally work, and violent ones generally don’t. Just accept the arrest, and in the extremely unlikely event that it wasn’t justified, enjoy living off your multi-million dollar payout. Or don’t, and enjoy broken bones and a prison sentence, and enjoy living with a criminal record. Seems like an obvious choice to me… And if you still think the system is unfair, spend your millions funding lawyers to represent those you believe to have been illegally arrested, and if you’re right, you’ll actually bring down the police forces by bankrupting them. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3589 "2015-06-11T19:12:09Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > How do you bring down the police department without fighting it in court? And while fighting it in court, you find out that the police DID in fact have a reason to arrest you, so not only did you get your ass kicked by the police, you are now on trial for resisting arrest. All this for the slim chance that you can “bring down the police department”? > > I mean really, there are videos of unarmed people getting shot to death, and THAT didn’t “bring down the police department” You think a video of you getting roughed up in what may or may not be an illegal arrest is going to do it? Scenario- cop yells at me, “I’m taking you in, you blue eyed motherfucker”. I resist and get the shit beat out of me. Someone films it, it goes viral, national outrage ensues, police department undergoes major shakeup, I sue for millions. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3590 "2015-06-11T19:12:46Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It is very easy for someone to impersonate a police officer. I’d like to think everyone would be okay with someone resisting being kidnapped from someone with criminal intent. But I dunno. Seems like what **Steophan** is teling me is that I can’t trust my gut or my instinct by running away any thug who just happens to be wearing a blue uniform. If someone looks like a cop, I’m supposed to let him render me immobile and force me into the back of his vehicle with nary a peep or scream. Or else, I’m the bad guy. Well, if you ever think THATS whats going on, have yourself a resisting arrest party. But I seriously doubt thats why most people that resist arrest are doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3591 "2015-06-11T19:14:43Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > How does a government become fascist? They put psychopaths in uniforms and then make it against the law to ever resist them. They also prevent you from challenging them in court, instead of encouraging it. You think a fascist government would let something like the ACLU exist? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3592 "2015-06-11T19:18:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > They also prevent you from challenging them in court, instead of encouraging it. You think a fascist government would let something like the ACLU exist? The Kansas Fascist Republican Party is on the verge of defunding their judicial branch. Don’t think it couldn’t happen nationwide and that the ACLU might find itself outlawed. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3593 "2015-06-11T19:18:42Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Scenario- cop yells at me, “I’m taking you in, you blue eyed motherfucker”. I resist and get the shit beat out of me. Someone films it, it goes viral, national outrage ensues, police department undergoes major shakeup, I sue for millions. While in court for the million dollar lawsuit, it turns out that an eyewitness identified you as the “Blue-Eyed Bandit” to the police, so they were well within their rights to arrest you. You lose the case, go to jail, and national outrage moves on to the new Kardashian wedding or other dumb shit. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3594 "2015-06-11T19:27:26Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I don’t think your characterization of the events is accurate. …At no time is she “thrown onto the pavement”. The concrete strip between the two patches of grass is pavement. Unless your definition of being thrown to the pavement requires that he physically lift her and throw her pro-wrestling body slam style, she is thrown onto the pavement. Not in the same way that I throw a baseball but he is standing and she is on the pavement because he threw here there. She didn’t get down there on her own he didn’t wrestle her onto the ground, he grabbed her arm and threw her onto the pavement. > [@](#): > > He attempts to get her to the ground multiple times, each time she attempts to rise. Like I said intitially - he could have tased her I suppose. Or he could have left her alone. He went into a crowd of girls to grab this girl because she was saying things that were pissing him off. > [@](#): > > He then directs the other officers that arrive to go after the guys that just ran. It appears to me like the other officers calm him down (rather than take directions from him), before they go after the boys. Like I said, I don’t think drawing the gun is the cause of the outrage. Its the way he manhandled a 14 year old girl that mouthed off at him. > [@](#): > > So you ask in what world is it okay for a cop to treat a teenage girl like that? In any world where the teenage girl is resisting arrest. Then why was he forced to resign? This sort of brutish behavior does nothing to inspire an already flagging confidence in our police and the unreasonable attempts to justify this sort of behavior as acceptable because someone did not submit to the absolute authority of a police officer is abetting tyranny. 9this is not directed at you) I can’t believe that gun rights activists will cheer folks go to the armed defense of a rancher that was trespassing on and stealing from the federal government (in defense of tyranny) but will shout “law & order” when a cop manhandles a 14 year old girl. They have a very particular definition of what constitutes tyranny. > [@](#): > > This is why the question of whether the initial command to disperse was lawful. If it was, and she did not, then everything that followed would be fine - she disobeyed a lawful command, she was detained, she resisted, the police escalated force, she was forced into compliance. It doesn’t matter whether the initial order was legal, his response to their failure to obey was inappropriate. > [@](#): > > Do you know understand qualified immunity? And isn’t the use of unnecessary force and police brutality are clearly against the law. > [@](#): > > I have no tolerance for police misbehavior. None at all. Your defense of this cop says otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3595 "2015-06-11T19:32:36Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m very much troubled by the idea that it doesn’t matter what a police officer tells me to do, I’m obligated by the law to do it. I’m even more troubled that people think this kind of submission is okay. Yeah, it’s one thing to say if a cop tells you to do something–no matter how egregious–the law may punish us if we don’t comply. It’s another thing altogether to say that if a cop tells you to do something–no matter how egregious–we should always comply without resistance or question. What is worrisome is that to some people, these two things are interchangeable. The threat of punishment trumps everything else, as if constitutional rights, self-defense, and human dignity are just optional niceties. Which is why we’re in a world where pregnant women can be forced to lay flat on their stomach if they decline to state their name, and folks are acting like this is a sensible consequence to resisting government intrusiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3596 "2015-06-11T19:33:09Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The Kansas Fascist Republican Party is on the verge of defunding their judicial branch. Don’t think it couldn’t happen nationwide and that the ACLU might find itself outlawed. Paranoia is not a good thing. Neither is referring to the Republicans as “fascist”. It makes you just as bad as those who attack Obama as a communist. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3597 "2015-06-11T19:39:51Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Yeah, it’s one thing to say if a cop tells you to do something–no matter how egregious–the law may punish us if we don’t comply. > > It’s another thing altogether to say that if a cop tells you to do something–no matter how egregious–we should always comply without resistance or question. > > What is worrisome is that to some people, these two things are interchangeable. The threat of punishment trumps everything else, as if constitutional rights, self-defense, and human dignity are just optional niceties. Which is why we’re in a world where pregnant women can be forced to lay flat on their stomach if they decline to state their name, and folks are acting like this is a sensible consequence to resisting government intrusiveness. There is nothing whatsoever egregious about expecting people not to resist arrest, to get the fuck out of the way if the police are trying to do their job, or to sit or lay down whilst the police determine who they need to arrest. You have the right to self defence against a cop who is not acting within his duties, as you would against anyone else. But not against a cop who is using force to get you to comply with an arrest or an order related to his work. No-one - not even **Smapti** - has said you should, or must, or are legally obliged to follow every order no matter how egregious. But you’d better be pretty damn sure that order is illegal, such as if a cop orders you to attack another person. If they try to arrest you, you let them without resisting. If they tell you to sit down, or lay down, or go over there, you do it. Nothing to do with rights, dignity or self defence at all. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3598 "2015-06-11T19:40:57Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > This sort of brutish behavior does nothing to inspire an already flagging confidence in our police and the unreasonable attempts to justify this sort of behavior as acceptable because someone did not submit to the absolute authority of a police officer is abetting tyranny. This. The publics’ opinion of the police is changing, and not in a good way. Twenty years ago if you asked me, “Do you trust the police?” I would have answered yes without much thought. Today my answer is, “No fucking way”. I saw a fight erupt between two guys last week. Twenty years ago I would have run to a payphone and dialed 911. Last week, even with a phone in my pocket, I didn’t call. There’s just too big a chance the police would over respond. A car wreck or injured person? Yea, I call 911. Most anything else? Unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3599 "2015-06-11T19:42:33Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I find this phrase to be especially creepy. We aren’t sheep to be led by our most wonderful police masters. They can request that we do things and if reasonable they’ll get cooperation, but they don’t get to bark orders at us. Yeah they do. Its called police power. Its limited so the police learn to shout orders that don’t have to be obeyed but make them sound like they have to be obeyed. They can arrest you, they just can’t treat a 14 year old girl like a crack addict on angel dust. > [@](#): > > If the police had just come up and taken a few kids aside and said something like “Look, buddy. We don’t want to arrest anyone but we’ve had some complaints about the noise and the number of people here and if you’d give us a hand and start to break it up we’d appreciate it,” that might have worked and nobody would be upset. You must be color blind. That’s not how we treat black people in this country. Black people, (particularly black teenagers) are practically animals and have to be treated like terrorists. The only problem here is that we are not used to seeing black GIRLS treated this way. If he had treated a black BOY that way, no one would have even noticed. > [@](#): > > They’ve been getting away with shit for generations, only now that video cameras are everywhere are we seeing what kind of psychos are in our police forces. Yeah, this is nothing new. I thought it was isolated to NY, Chicago, LA, DC and any other place I have lived or visited but apparently it is more widespread than that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3600 "2015-06-11T19:48:03Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Hahahaha. The half-naked minors were told to leave the area, and were then told to get their ass outta there. They chose not to obey repeated lawful orders, and they ended up sitting, or lying, on the grass with brand new silver bracelets. I guess the half-naked minors didn’t listen to the polite requests. Oh, well. > > The public called the police because there were fights, arguments, and unwelcome guests invading the private pool. How dare police respond to 9-1-1 calls. > > The officer didn’t draw his weapon until after two male assholes charged at him while he was trying to handcuff yellow bikini. Other officers handled the two morons, the officer replaced his weapon, and returned to handcuffing yellow bikini. Why didn’t yellow bikini take the opportunity to run away. Judging from the force being applied to detain her she was an obvious flight risk. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=179) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=181)