# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 181
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3601 "2015-06-11T19:49:46Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Your own quote says otherwise, unless you think that driving into someone’s car isn’t potentially lethal. Which would be a silly thing to think. Sideswiping a car /= attempted murder and you didn’t say “potentially lethal,” you said, “But the obvious reason not to appeal is that the police actually did nothing wrong in shooting at the **people trying to kill them.** ” (bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3602 "2015-06-11T19:57:35Z")
I think if I get a summons to go to court for a trial I think I should be able to resist that too. And paying taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3603 "2015-06-11T19:58:19Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > This. > > The publics’ opinion of the police is changing, and not in a good way. Twenty years ago if you asked me, “Do you trust the police?” I would have answered yes without much thought. Today my answer is, “No fucking way”. Sad but true. Most of the cops I have encountered in my life have been courteous and professional. But the few bad ones left an indelible impression. In an age where almost everyone can capture someone’s behavior on camera, that impression is spreading. Which leads me to wonder why the good ones, and the departments, will turn a blind eye, and even go so far as to _protect_ the bad ones. It is against their own self-interest. Certainly against the interest of the community and department and their very profession. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3604 "2015-06-11T20:04:11Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Most of the cops I have encountered in my life have been courteous and professional. But the few bad ones left an indelible impression. Most of the [insert minority here] I have encountered in my life have been courteous and professional. But the few bad ones left an indelible impression. Therefore, I shall assume EVERY [insert minority here] I meet are the bad ones. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3605 "2015-06-11T20:07:24Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > I am not convinced there was a racial element with the incident; there is not enough evidence for me to be sure (this is just IMHO, I have not spent much time besides watching the original video). No offense but you are probably white. > [@](#): > > One thing that is clear is the officer that resigned was completely out of control and was doing nothing but escalating the situation. But you are not blind or stupid. > [@](#): > > I remember when my friends and I used to trespass…made us explain what happened to our parents. > [@](#): > > This was the eighties, suburbia, and we were all white for the record. LOL, no offense but the whole being white thing makes a HUGE difference in how kids are treated. > [@](#): > > If it were today I have the sense that I would now be a felon instead of the successful pillar of the community I am now. I wouldn’t be so sure. There is still a huge disparity between how a white kid’s hijinks are treated compared to a black kid’s petty criminality. White kids joyride, black kids are committing grand theft auto. White kids wander into someone’s house and its trespass, a black kid does it and its conspiracy to commit burglary. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3606 "2015-06-11T20:09:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The concrete strip between the two patches of grass is pavement. Unless your definition of being thrown to the pavement requires that he physically lift her and throw her pro-wrestling body slam style, she is thrown onto the pavement. Thrown means she has to be airborne at some point. That’s how I interpret it. It’s semantics for sure, but it weakens your position if you use words incorrectly to make your case more favorable. She was wrestled and forced to the ground which included parts of the pavement and grass area. > [@](#): > > Or he could have left her alone. He went into a crowd of girls to grab this girl because she was saying things that were pissing him off. I don’t know his motives. They probably weren’t pristine. Regardless, if a police officer is making an arrest for not dispersing when lawfully ordered, it is perfectly legal to treat that person in the way the officer did. Your original question was what world is that treament okay. I answered that - when a person is resisting a lawful arrest. > [@](#): > > It appears to me like the other officers calm him down (rather than take directions from him), before they go after the boys. When the two other officers arrive on screen, you can hear the original officer saying “That motherfucker!” pointing in the purple shirt guy’s direction and they both immediately leave in pursuit. I can’t tell the two additional officer’s motivation, but you can see earlier in the video before the wrestling begins that the original officer looks like he’s radioing someone - my guess is that he knows he doesn’t have any more cuffs. Later in the video, you can see the other two offcers return with purple shirt guy, who now has a mouthfull of what looks to be blood. Maybe he fell. > [@](#): > > Then why was he forced to resign? I have no idea. There are probably multiple reasons. > [@](#): > > This sort of brutish behavior does nothing to inspire an already flagging confidence in our police and the unreasonable attempts to justify this sort of behavior as acceptable because someone did not submit to the absolute authority of a police officer is abetting tyranny. I actually do not think the behavior is acceptable. My focus is on whether it is legal. Many times in threads about police behavior, there is a vast misunderstanding of what is legal for the police to do. I find it important to highlight these so at least we know what to fight against. In this thread, you have \*\*Bob \*\*who I thought was being disingenuous but who now appears to be genuinley surprised that police can give people orders that must be complied with. In another thread (maybe this one) there was genuine surprise that police can order the driver and all passengers out of a vehicle during a traffic stop for no reason at all. Still others where posters are surprised to learn police can lie to you, have no duty to protect you, and so on. It’s critically important to get the matters of law accurate - to know what to rally against and fight. It weakens claims against unjust laws when the matters of law at issue are mistaken. I have no confidence in police in general. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3607 "2015-06-11T20:09:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You do realize that there are hundreds of thousands of “situations” annually in the US where police is called on the scene of some kind of an incident, and you’re somehow deriving the “MO” from a handful of them? It seems like an overly common problem. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3608 "2015-06-11T20:13:20Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why didn’t yellow bikini take the opportunity to run away. Judging from the force being applied to detain her she was an obvious flight risk. If she’d run, it is likely Officer Napoleon D’Crazy would have shot her 6 times in the back. And Smapti, doorhinge, and Steophan would be patiently explaining to us why this was a reasonable consequence to disobeying an officer. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3609 "2015-06-11T20:15:28Z")
> [@sich\_hinaufwinden](#): > > This thread is about “Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians” - not about Controversial encounters between civilians themselves. > > Whether the white woman was really the initial instigator and said the things they say she did (and I have no problem believing that - I think she did), that should be the subject for a different thread. > > AFAIK, the police were called because of and responded to a large number of unauthorized people that were in or trying to get into a private pool and utterly overwhelming the security guard’s ability to deal with them. > > I thought this discussion was supposed to be about whether what the police did in their reponse was appropriate or not - and if not, was it racially motivated. > > One officer was clearly out of line, but was the overall general police response inapproriate and/or racially motivated? > > Well, different people have different opinions. I think it is almost universally agreed that if you removed officer casebolt, the police response was generally appropriate. You can read something into the fact that police arrested black kids that lived in the neighborhood and had a right to be at the pool while entirely ignoring a white kid that wasn’t supposed to be there. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3610 "2015-06-11T20:19:43Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You have the right to self defence against a cop who is not acting within his duties, as you would against anyone else. How do you make that determination? If a person is wearing a police uniform, we pretty much have to assume that they are acting within their duties. These days, if you are in Denver and an officer’s shoulder patch says Winnebago County Wisconsin, you cannot even assume that that officer’s actions are precluded by jurisdiction. If they are a constable, that seems to be all that matters. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3611 "2015-06-11T20:24:04Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Most of the [insert minority here] I have encountered in my life have been courteous and professional. But the few bad ones left an indelible impression. > > Therefore, I shall assume EVERY [insert minority here] I meet are the bad ones. 😕 The [insert minority here] who pushed ahead of me in line annoyed me. But I’ll still be polite to the next one. The cops, supposedly hired for responsible behavior and dedication to public service, who murdered a kid with a toy, murdered a guy complying with their orders, etc., seem _significantly more annoying_ than the [insert minority here] who pushed ahead of me in line. No, **manson1972**? What am I missing? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3612 "2015-06-11T20:27:29Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > All of us who aren’t policemen. > > I want a list of what they can tell us to do and what they can’t. Depends on the state. But in almost all states they can order you to do stop “don’t make me chase you with 20 pounds of gear on my belt”, they can order you to do thing that will ensure the officer’s safety “get face down on the ground with your hands behind your head” they can order you to leave a secured area (crime scene, obstructing traffic, loitering, etc.). But regardless of what lawful commands are given, police cannot use “excessive force” in most jurisdictions. This is usually a grey area, police have to be concerned about their safety and the possibility of flight but when you are talking about a barefoot 14 year old girl in a bikini, its pretty clear you don’t need to exercise a whole lot of force to accomplish your authorized objectives. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3613 "2015-06-11T20:30:30Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Most of the [insert minority here] I have encountered in my life have been courteous and professional. But the few bad ones left an indelible impression. > > Therefore, I shall assume EVERY [insert minority here] I meet are the bad ones. I’m sure you trying to make a point, but I have no idea what it is. Could you clarify? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3614 "2015-06-11T20:37:09Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Well that was the epically stupid tactical mistake. Attack the least dangerous, most obviously not armed person and then sit on her, placing yourself at a lower and immobile position in the middle of a hostile crowd. STUPID. > Looks like my former cop gaming buddy just defriended me. He ‘shared’ this 4 picture thing claiming to prove that the cop never drew his weapon or pointed it at anyone. I called it an obvious lie and posted the screen-shot of the guy with his gun pointed at the two guys running. > > Then I get the “Who are you? Are you a cop? Have you ever been in those situations?” bullshit. I show my bonafides (gun owner 42 years, NRA Benefactor member for about 20 of those, 5 years Security work, most of it armed, multiple martial arts belts and yes, I HAVE actually had a weapon in my hand in self defense more than twice.) And got immediately de-friended. > > God, what a fucking ass. Doesn’t matter who the fuck I am, the pictures and videos prove that you’re posting A FUCKING LIE. In a world where 20% of the people are assholes (and I think I’m being generous), I am amazed at how many people are surprised that cops can be assholes too. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3615 "2015-06-11T20:44:22Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > I’m not clear on why the ruling can’t be appealed. If he was found guilty, defense could certainly appeal and base their argument that the judge decided wrongly for whatever reason. Why isn’t prosecution afforded the same? double jeopardy. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3616 "2015-06-11T20:47:25Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > How do you make that determination? If a person is wearing a police uniform, we pretty much have to assume that they are acting within their duties. These days, if you are in Denver and an officer’s shoulder patch says Winnebago County Wisconsin, you cannot even assume that that officer’s actions are precluded by jurisdiction. If they are a constable, that seems to be all that matters. You’ve answered your own question, really. It goes back to what’s been repeatedly said - let them peacefully arrest you then fight it in court later. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3617 "2015-06-11T20:49:03Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You’ve answered your own question, really. It goes back to what’s been repeatedly said - let them peacefully arrest you then fight it in court later. Unless they are breaking into your house in an attempt to kill you. Or serving a no-knock warrant. It probably looks about the same. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3618 "2015-06-11T20:51:38Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Unless they are breaking into your house in an attempt to kill you. Or serving a no-knock warrant. It probably looks about the same. Why would you ever assume the police are breaking into your house in an attempt to kill you? That’s absurd paranoia even by the standards of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3619 "2015-06-11T20:52:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Why would you ever assume the police are breaking into your house in an attempt to kill you? That’s absurd paranoia even by the standards of this thread. Criminals can easily don police uniforms and then break into your house in an attempt to rob or kill you. Actual police in uniforms can break into your house serving a no-knock warrant. How can you tell the difference? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3620 "2015-06-11T21:01:58Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > In a world where 20% of the people are assholes (and I think I’m being generous), I am amazed at how many people are surprised that cops can be assholes too. In 1991, some officers were recorded being serious assholes. In 1992, they were acquitted of being serious assholes. That was basically the first real instance where the police were recorded in the act of being serious assholes. The fact that it is happening more now may indicate that the police are increasing their assholery, but more likely it just means the assholery has been more or less constant but that there are now cameras everywhere capturing it. If we cannot weed out the problem officers, that is a real problem that must be addressed. If there will be assholes on the force, we ought to attempt to insure that they are not a concern, by establishing greater restraints on police behavior. Because an asshole is an asshole, but an asshole with real power should not be tolerated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=180) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=182)