# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/361 "2014-12-10T19:52:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Certainly the second brother was, and I’ve already said that the cop who punched him should have been charged with assault for hitting him. The first, I’m not so sure. If he was resisting a legitimate police request, then the officer had the right to lay hands on him, which doesn’t make what he did self defence. > > It’s not necessarily black and white, so to speak. There can be right and wrong on both “sides”, and in this case it looks like there was. Ummm…it already went to court, where it was concluded that the police didn’t have probable cause and all charges against the brothers were dropped. Now, if you were in my position writing this response you’d write an insane spittle-flecked screed about how disgusting it was that people were trying to subvert the law by even suggesting that the first brother was guilty of anything. Also somehow you’d work Emmett Till into your reply, and the words “lynch mob,” and something about how we were all evil for trying to deny the right to self-defense. For some reason though you seem to care so much more about nuance in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/362 "2014-12-10T20:39:44Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Ummm…it already went to court, where it was concluded that the police didn’t have probable cause and all charges against the brothers were dropped. I thought they went to court on the assault charges? That doesn’t say anything about whether the police had probable cause to ask for ID in the first place - for example, if they’d seen something as they followed them driving to the parking lot that would have justified a stop. I mean, it’s clear why the assault charges were dropped, as the police officer clearly lost it, but that doesn’t speak to whether the original request for ID was valid. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/363 "2014-12-10T20:51:45Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I thought they went to court on the assault charges? That doesn’t say anything about whether the police had probable cause to ask for ID in the first place - for example, if they’d seen something as they followed them driving to the parking lot that would have justified a stop. Guess you didn’t read where I said that Michigan is not a stop-and-identify state. The brothers were not driving when the cops demanded their IDs. They within their rights to refuse them. This is another case where I’m glad the victims were brave enough to resist. If they’d meekly obeyed and then complained about it later, not only is unlikely anything would have been done to those cops, but the public wouldn’t know the lengths they were willing to enforce unlawful demands. Their harassment would’ve stayed hidden. Resistance in the manner that these men did is what allows the truth to come out. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/364 "2014-12-10T21:51:22Z")
According to the one Detroit Fox News station report, I believe they had been driving and had just entered a business with the cops right behind them. At any rate, even in a “stop and identify” state, the police need a reasonable suspicion that someone’s committed a crime, and without that, someone’s free to refuse to comply. Odd that the cops didn’t make something up (?), which is SOP, but … As to Michigan, one case where they didn’t reach the question of “reasonable suspicion” (though various states have reached that question): Michigan v. Chesternut, 486 U.S. 567, 108 S. Ct. 1975, 100 L. Ed. 2d 565 (1988) [http://scholar.google.com/scholar\_case?case=16978852357758067713&q=v.+Chesternut,+486+U.S.+567+(1988)&hl=en&as\_sdt=20006](http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=16978852357758067713&q=v.+Chesternut,+486+U.S.+567+(1988)&hl=en&as_sdt=20006) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/365 "2014-12-10T23:28:26Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The brothers were not driving when the cops demanded their IDs. They within their rights to refuse them. They were only within their rights to refuse if the demand had nothing to do with their driving. What makes you think it didn’t? This is the problem with pretty much all of these arguments about use of force. People keep talking about irrelevant, separate issues, not whether the force used - by either party - was acceptable. Or are you saying that, had there been probable cause to demand the ID, in your opinion the use of force by the police would be acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/366 "2014-12-10T23:45:39Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > They were only within their rights to refuse if the demand had nothing to do with their driving. What makes you think it didn’t? Because the cops didn’t pull them over when they were driving. And because the cops didn’t answer them when they asked them what they did wrong. And because the first thing out of the cop’s mouth smacked of thuggish “what did you say to me back there, boy?” emotionalism. Nothing about any moving violations. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/367 "2014-12-11T00:49:21Z")
Some of yall may remember the [mall cop who pepper-sprayed and cuffed an innocent bystander.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mfWjgAK-VsQ) [Results like this are why people are getting fed up with cops and the judicial system.](http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/12/no-charges-for-mall-cop-who-pepper-sprayed-black-man-being-harassed-by-half-naked-white-man/) ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/368 "2014-12-11T23:06:55Z")
[Claim that undercover cops were acting as agents provocateur, then pulled their weapons when exposed.](https://storify.com/CourtneyPFB/undercover-cops-outed-and-pull-gun-on-crowd?utm_content=storify-pingback&utm_source=t.co&awesm=sfy.co_a03k7&utm_medium=sfy.co-twitter&utm_campaign) [Claim of police shoot ing unarmed dude with hands up. Guess what race he is.](http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/12/cedric-bartee/) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/369 "2014-12-12T00:13:16Z")
[Cop uses taser and arrests a woman for recording the arrest of another man](http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/12/cops-use-taser-on-woman-while-she-recorded-arrest-of-another-man/) The idiots deleted the recording on her phone, not knowing it was uploaded to her cloud account. She was arrested and charged with attempting to run down two police officers. But surprise, the charges were dropped. Hope she gets every red cent she’s suing for. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/370 "2014-12-12T00:22:28Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [Cop uses taser and arrests a woman for recording the arrest of another man](http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/12/cops-use-taser-on-woman-while-she-recorded-arrest-of-another-man/) > > The idiots deleted the recording on her phone, not knowing it was uploaded to her cloud account. > > She was arrested and charged with attempting to run down two police officers. But surprise, the charges were dropped. > > Hope she gets every red cent she’s suing for. Fuck them. Goddamn I’m glad the cloud is a thing. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/371 "2014-12-12T00:27:24Z")
Ha! Ha ha ha! Hardy-har-har-har! Oodles of giggles, tons of chuckles, another gift from the Ironic Buddha… ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/372 "2014-12-12T01:11:10Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Fuck them. Goddamn I’m glad the cloud is a thing. I know, right?! I know the cloud freaks some people out, but it sure is coming in handy lately. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/373 "2014-12-12T05:00:25Z")
Cops who can be proven to delete smartphone evidence should be charged with obstruction of justice IMO. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/374 "2014-12-12T05:09:37Z")
There’s an app for that. Or will be soon. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/375 "2014-12-12T20:29:55Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Cops who can be proven to delete smartphone evidence should be charged with obstruction of justice IMO. Cops don’t get indicted. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/376 "2014-12-12T20:40:47Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Cops don’t get indicted. True enough, sadly. I am beginning to think everyone should begin to record any police encounters they see. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/377 "2014-12-12T21:28:08Z")
Cops in Brooklyn apparently (nothing proven yet) planted guns on at least three different men. [NY Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/12/nyregion/gun-arrests-with-2-things-in-common-the-officers-and-unidentified-informers.html?_r=0) > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > The tip comes from a confidential informer: Someone has a gun. Ten or more minutes later, police officers find a man matching the informer’s detailed description at the reported location. A gun is discovered; an arrest is made. > > > > That narrative describes how Jeffrey Herring was arrested last year by police officers in the 67th Precinct in East Flatbush, Brooklyn. It also describes the arrests of at least two other men, Eugene Moore and John Hooper, by some of the same officers. > > > > The suspects said the guns were planted by the police. > > > > There were other similarities: Each gun was found in a plastic bag or a handkerchief, with no traces of the suspect’s fingerprints. Prosecutors and the police did not mention a confidential informer until months after the arrests. None of the informers have come forward, even when defense lawyers and judges have requested they appear in court. One man spent a year in jail before his case was dismissed by a judge who found the police “evasive”. Another spent a year in jail and then pleaded guilty and was sentenced to time served. Hopefully, if innocent, he can get his record cleared. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/378 "2014-12-12T21:58:24Z")
Not familiar with the source of this one. [Florida Cop Literally Just Shot Unarmed African American With His Hands Up, Begging Not To Be Shot](http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/12/cedric-bartee/#) > [@](#): > > Demings came to the defense of Sergeant McCarthy, saying that he only shot Bartee because he failed to comply with police commands. Apparently, this has now become the criterion for when police can use lethal force, even though it has no legal basis. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/379 "2014-12-12T23:40:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Demings said that “because of the backdrop of everything happening in the country at this time… It’s concerning to me” how people might react to this shooting of an unarmed African American with his hands literally up in the air when he was shot. Really? Ya think? ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/380 "2014-12-13T00:22:00Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > Not familiar with the source of this one. > [Florida Cop Literally Just Shot Unarmed African American With His Hands Up, Begging Not To Be Shot](http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/12/cedric-bartee/#) Pun intended, but whomever at “countercurrent news” who regurgitated from HuffPo article should be ashamed. It’s horrid writing/reporting using tactics to which your average person won’t pay attention. And I’d be curious to know precisely what Demings said, in context. Article goes: "Demings said that ‘because of the backdrop of everything happening in the country at this time… It’s concerning to me […]’ "-- where’s the rest of the sentence? Instead, writer just fills in his/her own end with “how people might react to this shooting of an unarmed African American with his hands literally up in the air when he was shot.” The HuffPo article puts relevant portion this way: “He added: ‘It’s concerning to me’ how the public might react.” By contrast, NBC news said: "Demings said he was asking for a criminal investigation because ‘I am very sensitive to some of the events that have occurred around the nation in recent times,’ an apparent reference to public demonstrations in the wake of grand juries’ decisions not to indict white police officers in the deaths of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, and Eric Garner in New York. Like Bartee, both Brown and Garner, who were black, were unarmed. ‘I want to ensure that we have transparency as well as accountability for the actions of all of my staff that’s involved,’ said Demings, who was joined at the news conference by black and white religious and community leaders. ‘I ask everyone to not rush to judgment and to allow the investigation to be completed in accordance with established policy and law.’ " > **[Florida Sheriff Wants Criminal Probe of White Deputy Who Shot Black Suspect](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-sheriff-wants-criminal-probe-white-deputy-who-shot-black-n264326)** > > A Florida sheriff asked state police to open a criminal investigation into one of his white deputies, who critically wounded an unarmed black man. To be sure, I can see why police are caught between being expected to disseminate preliminary info but also wanting to avoid being pinned down to a particular story – like the cops who shot that 12-yo having evidently initially told superiors that the kid was at the gazebo with other people, but they didn’t know the event was captured on video – but it’s better to say nothing than “Bartee made extensive furtive movements” along with the usual “didn’t do what the cop told him” line. You’re just asking for ridicule. Extensive furtive movements. OK. Does that mean he was extensively voiding his bowels while waving his hands in the air? What? Don’t be so vague that folks are confounded at what that means. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=20)