# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 194
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3861 "2015-06-19T17:32:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Apparently it means whatever a police officer decides in the moment. Nope, completely wrong. I even explained in the next sentence, perhaps you could try reading that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3862 "2015-06-19T17:34:15Z")
Just musing here - how much police training is dedicated to the following topics: 1. What to do when things are going bad 2. How to keep things from going bad So, greater emphasis on 1, I gather? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3863 "2015-06-19T17:40:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Nope, completely wrong. I even explained in the next sentence, perhaps you could try reading that. I did, and determining if things were REALLY imminent (to the extent such determinations are possible) requires the kind of “Monday morning” analysis your buddy Smapti holds in such contempt. Just to clarify, are you saying imminence is a necessary factor in the use of lethal force? If so, then any case where a suspect is shot in the back presumes a lack of imminence, no? It would be up to the officer to testify that the suspect charged but then turned around at the last moment or something. Not impossible, certainly, but needing some support. There’s no point trying to play dictionary with me. I’m smarter than you are. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3864 "2015-06-19T17:45:09Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I did, and determining if things were REALLY imminent (to the extent such determinations are possible) requires the kind of “Monday morning” analysis your buddy Smapti holds in such contempt. The time it took you to type that sentence is several times longer than a police officer has to decide whether or not he’s about to die if he doesn’t shoot first. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3865 "2015-06-19T18:01:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The time it took you to type that sentence is several times longer than a police officer has to decide whether or not he’s about to die if he doesn’t shoot first. And I recognize that circumstances like that do occur. I don’t recognize that they have occurred every time (or even most times) a civilian has been shot by police and further that anticipating the worst-case scenario is simply a justification to shoot anybody at any time. I expanded on this back in post 2939. So is a police officer about to die when a suspect is running away? He has only seconds to decide whether or not to shoot, so should he? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3866 "2015-06-19T18:02:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes. A direct line of things getting much, much better. Not nearly good enough. I trust black people in America to tell me what’s actually going on with black people in America, and not you – I’ve spoken to many, including members of my own family, and they tell me a very different story. I hold that it is entirely reasonable to compare quasi-legal past mistreatment like lynching with modern quasi-legal mistreatment like greater likelihoods of responding to peaceful black people with violence by police (like Sean Groubert, among many others), as well as greater likelihoods of responding to non-peaceful but non-imminently-life-threatening black people with lethal force (like those who killed Eric Garner). > [@](#): > > Only if they are deliberately and intentionally issued because of race. I believe that this is occurring, not that this is the only way racism can be involved. > [@](#): > > Yes you have :- > > You are acknowledging that some black people’s behaviour when in contact with the police will increase the chance of a confrontation, but you also say that _only_ the police can and should change the way they behave. You are making black people out to be passive victims rather than active participants, which is both false and insulting. No. I’m not talking at all about police behavior that is not mistreatment – I’m not saying that every time a black person has force inflicted it is police mistreatment. I’m pointing out the reality of the situation of police interacting with black people in general, and that the part of this reality that consists of the actual mistreatment is _entirely the fault of those police who mistreat people_ – just like the reality of lynching was _entirely the fault of those police and white citizens who took part in lynching_ (or stood by while they took place) and not at all the fault of any black people, including any black men who may have actually committed rape. > [@](#): > > Now I doubt it’s what you actually mean to say, but as I said, it’s extremely close to white supremacist bullshit like " blacks can’t help being stupid and criminal". You damage your whole argument by saying things like that, and rather than simply saying you’ve made no such claim you should perhaps explain better what you actually mean. No, you’re completely misreading what I’ve typed. I’m not making any excuses for any bad behavior of black people at all. When a black person misbehaves, that is entirely the fault of the misbehaving individual. And this is totally irrelevant to the issue of police mistreatment of black people. _The behavior – any behavior – of any and every black person is completely irrelevant to police mistreatment of black people_. No actions justify mistreatment, just as no actions justify lynching. Note (again!) that I’m not talking about _legitimate and appropriate_ uses of force against black people, which exist and occur. I’m talking purely about mistreatment. I know we may disagree on some instances as to whether or not they are mistreatment, but I’m not talking about any instances in which force is applied appropriately. I’m only talking about mistreatment, and this mistreatment is entirely the fault of the police officers who mistreat people, the officers who stand by without stopping it or speaking up, and a police culture which insists upon the ‘Blue Wall’ and other customs which make it extremely difficult to change bad behaviors. You want to talk about the bad behavior of some individual black people. That’s fine to talk about, but it has _absolutely nothing_ to do with police mistreatment of black people. Just as black behavior had nothing to do with slavery, or lynching, or Jim Crow – it has nothing to do with the modern descendants of those institutions, which include police mistreatment of black people (and the unfair treatment in the larger justice system). I trust black people to tell me the truth about how black people are treated by police – they’ve been right for hundreds of years in America, and I see no reason to believe why they (as a group) would be wrong now. It’s a consistent trend, in my view – for most of American history, white people (in general) were wrong about the truth of mistreatment of black people, and black people were right. I still trust black people, and the stories they have told me leads me to believe that in many cases and many places they are still being mistreated to varying degrees by police and the justice system. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3867 "2015-06-19T18:08:56Z")
If you don’t accept that police mistreatment of black people is a significant problem in America, then my response is that I trust black people about how black people are treated, and not you. And I would advise you that I think it is extremely unwise to view black people today, in general, as any less honest, trustworthy, or intelligent about how black people are treated in America as they were (when they were very obviously correct) 50 years ago, 100 years ago, and 200 years ago. They were right then, and they are right today. If you accept that police mistreatment of black people is a significant problem in America, but believe that black people are partially responsible for this, then my response is the same as it would be for past mistreatment like lynching – nothing justifies lynching (not even rape!), and nothing justifies mistreatment by police (not even resisting arrest). Black people bore zero responsibility for past mistreatment like slavery and lynching, and they bear zero responsibility today for any modern police mistreatment. And note that I’m talking about mistreatment, not every use of force. Legitimate uses of force exist, but I’m only talking about mistreatment. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3868 "2015-06-19T18:15:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Just musing here - how much police training is dedicated to the following topics: > > 1. What to do when things are going bad > 2. How to keep things from going bad > > So, greater emphasis on 1, I gather? It seems there should be a #3 - “How to make sure things go bad”. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3869 "2015-06-19T18:18:06Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > It seems there should be a #3 - “How to make sure things go bad”. Some officers don’t need training for that - they have natural talent. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3870 "2015-06-19T18:18:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > ‘If that \*\*\*\*\*\* didn’t want to get lynched he shouldn’t have raped that woman’. > > You’re not saying exactly those words, but to my mind it’s a very similar sentiment from a direct ancestor of the present scenario. My point is that it’s irrelevant – in the larger issue (for lynching) it doesn’t matter one iota that some black men may have actually committed rape, and for the larger issue of police mistreatment of black people it doesn’t matter one iota if Michael Brown or Eric Garner acted in poor ways. > > I’m not saying that Brown and Garner did nothing wrong, I’m saying that their behavior is _absolutely irrelevant_ in the discussion of police mistreatment of black people – as irrelevant as any potentially legitimate accusations of rape against black men were during the time of lynchings. No, I disagree. But perhaps it’s because I don’t quite understand you. If the treatment of Brown and Garner is being used as an example of the claimed mistreatment, then it seems to me what they did is somewhat relevant. The reason is that police are permitted to forcibly detain someone who gives them a reasonable, articulable suspicion of committing a felony. If any part of your argument is that Brown and/or Garner were wrongly forcibly detained, then the legitimacy of that detention is at issue. And the legitimacy of that detention rests in no small measure on what they actually did, if anything. Can you explain your idea a bit further in light of this observation? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3871 "2015-06-19T18:19:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you don’t accept that police mistreatment of black people is a significant problem in America, then my response is that I trust black people about how black people are treated, and not you. And I would advise you that I think it is extremely unwise to view black people today, in general, as any less honest, trustworthy, or intelligent about how black people are treated in America as they were (when they were very obviously correct) 50 years ago, 100 years ago, and 200 years ago. They were right then, and they are right today. > > If you accept that police mistreatment of black people is a significant problem in America, but believe that black people are partially responsible for this, then my response is the same as it would be for past mistreatment like lynching – nothing justifies lynching (not even rape!), and nothing justifies mistreatment by police (not even resisting arrest). Black people bore zero responsibility for past mistreatment like slavery and lynching, and they bear zero responsibility today for any modern police mistreatment. > > And note that I’m talking about mistreatment, not every use of force. Legitimate uses of force exist, but I’m only talking about mistreatment. Can you give a specific example of mistreatment, one that you feel is systemic? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3872 "2015-06-19T18:28:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, I disagree. But perhaps it’s because I don’t quite understand you. > > If the treatment of Brown and Garner is being used as an example of the claimed mistreatment, then it seems to me what they did is somewhat relevant. > > The reason is that police are permitted to forcibly detain someone who gives them a reasonable, articulable suspicion of committing a felony. If any part of your argument is that Brown and/or Garner were wrongly forcibly detained, then the legitimacy of that detention is at issue. And the legitimacy of that detention rests in no small measure on what they actually did, if anything. > > Can you explain your idea a bit further in light of this observation? I’m only discussing police mistreatment, not all uses of force by police. If Brown or Garner were mistreated, then the only ones responsible for the mistreatment are police, and nothing Brown or Garner did ‘earned’ such mistreatment, even if they made mistakes. It’s entirely possible that some of the police actions (like, say, trying to restrain Garner) were lawful and not mistreatment, while other actions (like, say, putting the pressure on his chest that resulted in his death, or not responding appropriately when he showed signs of distress) were in fact mistreatment – if so, then the police are entirely responsible for the mistreatment still, while the individual perp/victim is responsible for the lawful and appropriate uses of force. So I’m saying that in actual instances of police mistreatment, the behavior of the dead/injured person involved is entirely and completely irrelevant. I’m also saying that, based on what I’ve heard (personally and from public figures and writers) from black people, police mistreatment of black people is still a significant problem in America. I’m saying that you (and everyone) should accept that this is the case purely based on the reports and opinions of most black people, since the history of America has shown us that these reports and opinions (when considered as a whole) can be trusted as by far the most reliable and accurate source with regards to the issues of mistreatment of black people by different aspects of society. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3873 "2015-06-19T18:31:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can you give a specific example of mistreatment, one that you feel is systemic? The following come immediately to mind: more severe sentencing for similar crimes, a greater likelihood of traffic stops and searches for mundane behavior, a much higher likelihood (based on extremely limited statistics due to the lack of cooperation/interest by PDs in providing such numbers and the non-statistical reports of black writers) of police killing black people (especially young black men) than disparities in crime stats would suggest. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3874 "2015-06-19T18:32:50Z")
Warning: when the Counselor uses the word “specific”, the odds are good that you are being invited to step into a semantic nitpick trap. Did that to me a hundred times, then I caught on… ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3875 "2015-06-19T18:32:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can you give a specific example of mistreatment, one that you feel is systemic? Other than the vast gulf in arrest rates for white and blacks for the same crimes? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3876 "2015-06-19T18:34:04Z")
Not specific enough. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3877 "2015-06-19T19:22:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can you give a specific example of mistreatment, one that you feel is systemic? You want a specific example of a system wide problem? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3878 "2015-06-19T20:07:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not specific enough. How is that not specific enough? Please provide a specific example of the kind of specific example you’d find acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3879 "2015-06-19T20:17:06Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > How is that not specific enough? > > Please provide a specific example of the kind of specific example you’d find acceptable. **elucidator** was not being serious, but was mocking **Bricker** ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/3880 "2015-06-19T20:24:12Z")
Pretty sure **Chimera** was typing tongue in cheek as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=193) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=195)