# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 203
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4041 "2015-06-22T21:26:32Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No-one’s suggested they can gun people down for illegal reasons. But gunning someone down because you’re legitimately scared they’ll kill or seriously injure you isn’t (or at least, shouldn’t be) illegal. _That’s_ the reason they, and you, can shoot people. Perhaps we need to start weeding out police who are so constantly afraid for their lives that they shoot people pulling out their wallets or cellphones. Those are not legitimate shootings, those are goddamned unacceptable in a free society. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4042 "2015-06-22T21:35:45Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Then there is no way to convict a cop of an illegal shooting, unless he wants to be convicted and confesses. Right? Sigh. Wrong, obviously. And it has nothing to do with him being a cop, it has to do with him being a person, with the right to defend himself. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4043 "2015-06-22T21:41:06Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Those are not legitimate shootings, those are goddamned unacceptable in a free society. Well they’re certainly acceptable under the laws of a country that prides itself on freedom… I can only guess you’re another idiot who thinks people should wait until they’ve actually been shot to defend themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4044 "2015-06-22T21:42:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Sigh. Wrong, obviously. And it has nothing to do with him being a cop, it has to do with him being a person, with the right to defend himself. How could you convict anyone, cop of otherwise, if all they have to do is say the magic words. Clearly, you are wrong because people and cops get convicted, whether they feel personally threatened or not. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4045 "2015-06-22T21:53:06Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How could you convict anyone, cop of otherwise, if all they have to do is say the magic words. Clearly, you are wrong because people and cops get convicted, whether they feel personally threatened or not. What the fuck are you talking about with “magic words”? Do you really think anyone’s saying that, if someone claims to have been in fear, that guarantees their acquittal? I’ve never claimed that, no-one who supports self defence claims that, it’s an absolute fucking lie spread by liberal arseholes who hate the idea of people standing up for themselves. For someone to be convicted when they claim it was self defence, you need to either prove they were lying about being in fear of imminent death or serious injury, or that said fear was unreasonable. So, take the guy running from the police when he was shot. If video or witness evidence proves he did nothing that would put a reasonable person in such fear, then he can be convicted. But you actually need something to prove the cop a liar, you can’t just say “well he killed someone, so he might be lying, but I can’t prove it, but lock him up anyway”. Well, you can’t say it unless you’re an idiot who doesn’t actually care about protecting innocent people from attack. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4046 "2015-06-22T21:59:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > For someone to be convicted when they claim it was self defence, you need to either prove they were lying about being in fear of imminent death or serious injury… So no officer can be convicted unless the prosecutor possesses telepathic powers. Riiiight. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4047 "2015-06-22T23:08:21Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Well they’re certainly acceptable under the laws of a country that prides itself on freedom… I can only guess you’re another idiot who thinks people should wait until they’ve actually been shot to defend themselves. Well, I’d ask if you were retarded, but as I am exceptionally familiar with this brand of Cop Logic\*, we’ll just go forward, eh? What the entire conversation is about is the basic fact of whether or not this kind of thing is acceptable in our society. That’s what the protests come down to, that’s what these threads come down to. That I and a helluva lot of Americans DO NOT think this situation is acceptable and are demanding change. So here’s my question for you, Mr. Fascist Supporter of Police Slaughtering Innocents… How many deaths are justifiable? How many people are police allowed to kill each year because they reached for a phone, or had a wallet in their hands, or “walked with purpose” toward a police officer when they were in need of assistance? All of us? 100,000 per year? 1,000 per year? Is there a point where you would accept that perhaps the procedures and training need to change to reduce this number? Do you have the slightest understanding why people might not view such things as acceptable and desire to change both the laws and our societal expectations of police behavior? - I’ve worked for and with a fair number of current, former and retired cops, and gamed and socialized with them too. To a man (and woman), they all seem highly trained in and greatly enamored of the logical fallacy that says “AHA! You said X, so I’ll assume Y and Z (which are patently false, absurd and (preferably) downright offensive) and throw them back your face in order to put you on the defensive and control the conversation.” ---
**Author:** ![slumtrimpet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@slumtrimpet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slumtrimpet)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4048 "2015-06-22T23:27:37Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Perhaps we need to start weeding out police who are so constantly afraid for their lives that they shoot people pulling out their wallets or cellphones. > > Those are not legitimate shootings, those are goddamned unacceptable in a free society. Or flagging down the police with a towel wrapped around their arm. [Cuff 'em Danno.](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-man-with-towel-on-arm-shot-in-head-by-lapd-20150620-story.html) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4049 "2015-06-23T00:29:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Any time a cop gets shot in the line of duty, it certainly wasn’t an “innocent citizen” who was involved. Really? How about a no-knock at the wrong address? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4050 "2015-06-23T02:55:06Z")
How about the cop who tried to shoot the family dog, but shot [a four-year-old girl instead:](http://huff.to/1H9cnCb) > [@](#): > > The woman told Thomas that her sister – later identified as Andrea Ellis – had cut herself and needed medical attention. > > When Thomas arrived at the doorway of the residence, one of the family dogs ran at him, according to Columbus police spokeswoman Denise Alex-Bouzounis. Thomas pulled out his gun and fired, inadvertently hitting the young girl in the leg. So explain how the four-year-old had it coming. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4051 "2015-06-23T03:04:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Sigh. Wrong, obviously. And it has nothing to do with him being a cop, it has to do with him being a person, with the right to defend himself. So does that mean I can shoot people who I think are a threat? Say they pull out their cell phone or have their hands near their waistband, can I shoot them without waiting to determine their intentions? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4052 "2015-06-23T04:04:14Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > So does that mean I can shoot people who I think are a threat? Say they pull out their cell phone or have their hands near their waistband, can I shoot them without waiting to determine their intentions? Don’t be silly. First, they must do something a reasonable person would find threatening, like run away, or resemble a 12 year old black child with a toy gun in his pants. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4053 "2015-06-23T07:26:51Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So no officer can be convicted unless the prosecutor possesses telepathic powers. Riiiight. No, wrong again. Why would you need telepathy to prove what a reasonable person would think? That’s the exact purpose of having that standard, to prevent the need for telepathy. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4054 "2015-06-23T07:33:07Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > How many deaths are justifiable? How many people are police allowed to kill each year because they reached for a phone, or had a wallet in their hands, or “walked with purpose” toward a police officer when they were in need of assistance? > > All of us? > 100,000 per year? > 1,000 per year? > > Is there a point where you would accept that perhaps the procedures and training need to change to reduce this number? It’s not a matter of numbers. It’s a matter of whether a reasonable person would have been in fear at the point the cop shot. And that is decided by the public, on juries, so it’s not like they don’t have their say. But to make it clear, they are not allowed to kill anyone _because_ they reached for a phone, or a wallet, or walked in a certain way. If in any case that was the actual reason the cop shot him, and not because the cop believed it was a gun, then they’re not justifiable. So, the answer is zero. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4055 "2015-06-23T07:35:05Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > So does that mean I can shoot people who I think are a threat? Say they pull out their cell phone or have their hands near their waistband, can I shoot them without waiting to determine their intentions? Yes, if you reasonably believe they are an imminent danger to you. Just the same as the cops. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4056 "2015-06-23T11:37:59Z")
[New Mexico: 2 Officers Face Murder Charge](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/23/us/new-mexico-2-officers-face-murder-charge.html?_r=0) I had just moved to ABQ when this happened: > [@](#): > > Two Albuquerque police officers will be charged with second-degree murder in the shooting death last year of a homeless man in the mountains where he had been camping, a special prosecutor said Monday. The shooting of the man, James Boyd, who video showed was killed during a standoff after appearing to surrender, sparked protests around Albuquerque. Special Prosecutor Randi McGinn’s office announced several charges against Officers Keith Sandy and Dominique Perez in the killing. Both officers have denied wrongdoing. Officer Sandy “was protecting a fellow officer when he shot Mr. Boyd,” the officer’s lawyer, Sam Bregman, said. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4057 "2015-06-23T13:36:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, if you reasonably believe they are an imminent danger to you. Just the same as the cops. Wow, Americans sure live in terror, don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4058 "2015-06-23T13:48:14Z")
[The Smapti-Steophan School Of Police Tactics reads much like the equine medicine chapter in veterinary medicine.](http://ppgworldservices.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/vet-school.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4059 "2015-06-23T13:50:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, wrong again. Why would you need telepathy to prove what a reasonable person would think? That’s the exact purpose of having that standard, to prevent the need for telepathy. Well, going by you and **Smapti** , “reasonable persons” seem to be fucking bonkers and hopped up on insane troll logic, so I could see how a police officer would be afraid and/or thoroughly confused. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4060 "2015-06-23T14:06:40Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, going by you and **Smapti** , “reasonable persons” seem to be fucking bonkers and hopped up on insane troll logic, so I could see how a police officer would be afraid and/or thoroughly confused. What’s confusing about being allowed to defend yourself if you are in danger of of imminent death or serious injury? Plenty of people seem to have a problem with that, but I’m fucked if I can tell why. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=202) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=204)