# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 204
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4061 "2015-06-23T14:08:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What’s confusing about being allowed to defend yourself if you are in danger of of imminent death or serious injury? Plenty of people seem to have a problem with that, but I’m fucked if I can tell why. So far I haven’t seen anyone argue that cops shouldn’t be allowed to defend themselves when in imminent danger. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4062 "2015-06-23T14:15:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So far I haven’t seen anyone argue that cops shouldn’t be allowed to defend themselves when in imminent danger. There’s been plenty of people saying that the police shouldn’t fire at someone threatening them with a gun. It’s hard to get much more imminently in danger than that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4063 "2015-06-23T14:18:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There’s been plenty of people saying that the police shouldn’t fire at someone threatening them with a gun. It’s hard to get much more imminently in danger than that. Liar. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4064 "2015-06-23T14:19:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s not a matter of numbers. It’s a matter of whether a reasonable person would have been in fear at the point the cop shot. And that is decided by the public, on juries, so it’s not like they don’t have their say. Except they don’t all go to juries, do they? And even when they do, the jury instructions are extremely biased. > [@](#): > > But to make it clear, they are not allowed to kill anyone _because_ they reached for a phone, or a wallet, or walked in a certain way. If in any case that was the actual reason the cop shot him, and not because the cop believed it was a gun, then they’re not justifiable. > > So, the answer is zero. Which isn’t really an answer, is it? Because all the cop has to say is that he was afraid and suddenly it’s “justified”, right? Perhaps we need to start by removing all these police officers who are so utterly terrified of wallets and cellphones that they (and you) believe it justifies murder. And at that, you really didn’t answer my question, so I’ll rephrase it: _ **How many people need to be killed by police each year in the United States before YOU start to say “there’s something wrong here and we need to change this”?** _ Because many of us have passed this point and you clearly disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4065 "2015-06-23T14:21:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Liar. Ha ha no, you explicitly said exactly that. That even though that old guy was pointing a gun at him, the cop shouldn’t have shot him. You do realise that people can actually read what you write, right? That it doesn’t just vanish when convenient for you? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4066 "2015-06-23T14:25:15Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > _ **How many people need to be killed by police each year in the United States before YOU start to say “there’s something wrong here and we need to change this”?** _ > > Because many of us have passed this point and you clearly disagree. I’ve posted this before – here are some of the numbers: Police in the United States killed more people in [March 2015](http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/04/01/3641143/use-of-force-incidents-march/) than police in the UK have killed in the last [115 years](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_Kingdom). Here’s how the per-capita math works out: The US has a lot more gun violence than the UK – the US has about 9000 gun murders per year, and the UK has only about 30 gun murders per year – adjust for population, and we find that the US has about 60 times the gun homicides per capita of the UK. But this is not even close to the difference in killings-by-police: 12 months \* 115 years \* ~300 mil/~60 mil = 6900… multiply that by ~2 (the US killed about 2 times as many in March 2015 as the UK killed in the last 115 years) and the US has about 14,000 times more killings by police per capita than the UK. How about per-gun-murder? Back of the envelope math… US police kill more than 200 times as many people _per gun murder_ as UK police kill. There is way more going on here than just a difference in gun amounts, or gun violence. I don’t think it’s reasonable that, in the US, police officers find themselves in mortal danger 200 times _when corrected for the difference in gun murders_ greater than the UK. I think it’s far more likely that in the US, police officers are just more likely to draw their weapons and fire their weapons, and more likely to claim after the fact that they were in mortal danger. And in many cases I don’t blame the cops – in many cases, this is how they are trained – to act as if they are mortal danger when, sometimes, they are not. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4067 "2015-06-23T14:32:31Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There’s been plenty of people saying that the police shouldn’t fire at someone threatening them with a gun. It’s hard to get much more imminently in danger than that. Shithead. What is really happening is that people are aghast and disgusted by the frequency with which cops are shooting people before they even know what, if anything, they are being threatened with. The standard for shooting someone cannot be “I was afraid of what might possibly be.” That’s okay only for pussies and racists. The rest of us are demanding that the standard is that one responds to reality, not to fevered imaginings. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4068 "2015-06-23T14:34:04Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Except they don’t all go to juries, do they? No, only the ones where there’s a good chance of prosecution. Like for all other crimes. > [@](#): > > And even when they do, the jury instructions are extremely biased. Yes, obviously, the jury instructions, like the rest of the trial, are strongly biased in favour of the defendant. Like for all other trials. > [@](#): > > Which isn’t really an answer, is it? Because all the cop has to say is that he was afraid and suddenly it’s “justified”, right? No, wrong. For reasons that have been repeatedly and exhaustively stated in this and many other threads, this isn’t true. He has to have been afraid, and that fear has to have been reasonable. Simply saying it doesn’t get him off the hook. > [@](#): > > Perhaps we need to start by removing all these police officers who are so utterly terrified of wallets and cellphones that they (and you) believe it justifies murder. Nothing justifies murder, that’s a contradiction in terms. But yeah, if some cops are \*unreasonably \*unable to tell the difference between a wallet and a gun, in the dark, at a distance, when confronting someone they have reason to believe is violent, then remove them. Perhaps you could volunteer for the control group, so we can see how easy or hard it is. Of course, it wouldn’t be a perfect control, because you wouldn’t _die_ if you got it wrong. > [@](#): > > And at that, you really didn’t answer my question, so I’ll rephrase it: > > _ **How many people need to be killed by police each year in the United States before YOU start to say “there’s something wrong here and we need to change this”?** _ > > Because many of us have passed this point and you clearly disagree. There’s no fixed number. That’s not how it should work. But then, I’ve repeatedly said that things need to be changed. Strange how you keep ignoring that… Better mental health treatment would help in a lot of cases, reducing the number of unpredictably violent people that the police have to deal with. Body cameras will help, by making it far easier for us to decide if someone could reasonably have been considered a threat. And people need to act respectfully, not confrontationally, when dealing with the police. Change on all sides. You seem to think that the police are deliberately shooting at people they know aren’t a threat, and that if they’d just stop everything would be fine. That’s bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4069 "2015-06-23T14:36:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And in many cases I don’t blame the cops – in many cases, this is how they are trained – to act as if they are mortal danger when, sometimes, they are not. I’m glad you posted this bit, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4070 "2015-06-23T14:36:27Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Wow, Americans sure live in terror, don’t they? Honestly, we do. We are a nation of pants-wetting fear sponges. It is the most parsimonious explanation for our gun culture, our race relations, our foreign policy… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4071 "2015-06-23T14:36:40Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Ha ha no, you explicitly said exactly that. That even though that old guy was pointing a gun at him, the cop shouldn’t have shot him. > > You do realise that people can actually read what you write, right? That it doesn’t just vanish when convenient for you? Liar. Quote me saying that. While you’re at it, _try_ to quote the original article saying that he was pointing the gun directly at the cops, at not just around the corner and down the hallway. Read the article on how the cop was able to get up to the weapon and disarm the old man, you idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4072 "2015-06-23T14:44:30Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Shithead. What is really happening is that people are aghast and disgusted by the frequency with which cops are shooting people before they even know what, if anything, they are being threatened with. Ah, another fuckhead who thinks they should wait until they’ve been shot until they can defend themselves. When you know whether or not someone’s actually going to shoot you, _it’s too fucking late_. > [@](#): > > The standard for shooting someone cannot be “I was afraid of what might possibly be.” That’s okay only for pussies and racists. The rest of us are demanding that the standard is that one responds to reality, not to fevered imaginings. That would be the “rest of you” excluding the police, the courts, the lawmakers, the public who vote for those laws, right? And anyone with a bit of common sense who would realise that defending yourself only makes sense _before_ you’re dead or crippled. Anyway, I’d far rather those I care about are live pussies that dead pacifist liberal cunts. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4073 "2015-06-23T14:45:44Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > … > No, wrong. For reasons that have been repeatedly and exhaustively stated in this and many other threads, this isn’t true. He has to have been afraid, and that fear has to have been reasonable. \*Simply saying it doesn’t get him off the hook. > \* > … > You seem to think that the police are deliberately shooting at people they know aren’t a threat, and that if they’d just stop everything would be fine. That’s bullshit. [my italics] Yeah, you need to drop a taser next to the body and make sure there’s no cell phone video. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4074 "2015-06-23T14:48:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Liar. Quote me saying that. While you’re at it, _try_ to quote the original article saying that he was pointing the gun directly at the cops, at not just around the corner and down the hallway. Read the article on how the cop was able to get up to the weapon and disarm the old man, you idiot. You are a disingenuous idiot. What else but the cop was he pointing the gun at down the corridor, was it a fucking firing range? The cop disarmed him because he (correctly, fortunately) judged that the man wasn’t actually going to shoot him, and wanted help. Which is in many ways, as I’ve said, a brave and admirable decision, but not one you get to say anyone with a gun pointed at them _should_ make. And I’m not quoting posts again that you made and I quoted yesterday. You, for some unknown reason, think that it would have been a better outcome if the cop had been shot that the old guy, and you’ve as yet not explained why. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4075 "2015-06-23T14:52:43Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > [my italics] > > Yeah, you need to drop a taser next to the body and make sure there’s no cell phone video. Yep, that might well work. One reason I strongly support body cams. Which will give people more protection from the police than from ordinary people. But I don’t accept that it should be any harder for a cop to claim self defence that anyone else, which should mean that to prosecute them, you must prove it wasn’t self defence. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4076 "2015-06-23T15:05:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You are a disingenuous idiot. What else but the cop was he pointing the gun at down the corridor, was it a fucking firing range? The cop disarmed him because he (correctly, fortunately) judged that the man wasn’t actually going to shoot him, and wanted help. Which is in many ways, as I’ve said, a brave and admirable decision, but not one you get to say anyone with a gun pointed at them _should_ make. > > And I’m not quoting posts again that you made and I quoted yesterday. You, for some unknown reason, think that it would have been a better outcome if the cop had been shot that the old guy, and you’ve as yet not explained why. The better outcome is when the cops spend more then two seconds actually analyzing the situation, then decide on a course of action that brings the least amount of harm to everybody involved. I’m sorry there wasn’t enough bloodshed in this situation to satisfy your needs, but I’m sure a situation will pop up soon enough where you will be able to once again spout your “He had no other choice but to empty his gun…then reload…then empty his gun again! That Girl Scout might have had a weapon hidden in that box of cookies!” type of defense. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4077 "2015-06-23T15:16:18Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How about the cop who tried to shoot the family dog, but shot [a four-year-old girl instead:](http://huff.to/1H9cnCb) Four? Have you seen pictures? She could easily pass for six! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4078 "2015-06-23T15:29:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’m glad you posted this bit, at least. You’re not “glad” about the other numbers I posted? Don’t you think the difference in police shootings are relevant to this discussion? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4079 "2015-06-23T15:29:51Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Four? Have you seen pictures? She could easily pass for six! To be fair, he had been watching Men In Black just before the event, and she was carrying a book on particle physics. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4080 "2015-06-23T15:37:19Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > To be fair, he had been watching Men In Black just before the event, and she was carrying a book on particle physics. Just like Steophan. Wait, no, not Men in Black. Steophan was watching black men, through a tiny gap in his drapes, while praying and fingering his weapon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=203) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=205)