# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 209
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4161 "2015-06-24T16:28:30Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > According to people in this thread, it isn’t about a third party’s perception of threat, nor is it about the reality of the threat. It is whether the shooter was in fear for his life. > > As I said, there’s plenty of empirical evidence from the Wal Mart incident to show that people were in fear for their lives. You can’t suddenly invoke reality or third party opinions randomly. When the case goes to court, do you think a jury would believe you? Or are they more likely to believe the Police Chief? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4162 "2015-06-24T16:32:51Z")
Oh, \*now \*you’re believing Chiefs of Police? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4163 "2015-06-24T16:33:58Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > When the case goes to court, do you think a jury would believe you? Or are they more likely to believe the Police Chief? The opinion of the police chief is irrelevant. Why do you keep bringing it up? Do you think the police chief can testify that I was not in fear for my life? It seems like this is conceptually challenging for you. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4164 "2015-06-24T16:36:29Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > How do you justify using deadly force if there was no imminent danger? Ooh! Ooh! I know! I know! You say that you thought that there was imminent danger. What do I win? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4165 "2015-06-24T16:37:17Z")
Besides which, the police chief said exactly the opposite of what you claim, doorhinge, you stupid fuck. > **[Miss. police: Open carry laws kept us from arresting shotgun-toting man who...](https://www.rawstory.com/2015/06/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-walmart-shoppers/)** > > The police chief of  Gulfport, Mississippi, expressed his frustration with his state's open carry laws after a man strolling through a Walmart Sunday night menaced shoppers by loading and racking shells into his shotgun, causing police to... ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4166 "2015-06-24T17:14:28Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Ooh! Ooh! I know! I know! > > You say that you thought that there was imminent danger. > > What do I win? 20 years to life, if you can’t convince a jury. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4167 "2015-06-24T17:15:36Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Besides which, the police chief said exactly the opposite of what you claim, doorhinge, you stupid fuck. > > [Miss. police: Open carry laws kept us from arresting shotgun-toting man who terrorized Walmart shoppers](http://www.rawstory.com/2015/06/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-walmart-shoppers/) Gesundheit! ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4168 "2015-06-24T17:22:49Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Gesundheit! I cannot discern this idiot’s meaning. Does anyone here speak doorhinge? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4169 "2015-06-24T17:35:39Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > According to people in this thread, it isn’t about a third party’s perception of threat, nor is it about the reality of the threat. It is whether the shooter was in fear for his life. > > As I said, there’s plenty of empirical evidence from the Wal Mart incident to show that people were in fear for their lives. You can’t suddenly invoke reality or third party opinions randomly. No, it very specifically is about a third party’s perception of the threat, that third party being the hypothetical “reasonable man”. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4170 "2015-06-24T17:36:31Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Of course we should be discussing societal problems, but every time that’s tried people start screaming “RACIST!!!” in an attempt to shut down any discussion that doesn’t involve blaming cops (who’ve been found not guilty of any crime) for all of the problems. (a) I disagree (b) I strongly believe that it’s possible for someone to both (i) be found not guilty of any crime and (ii) bear direct personal responsibility for some bad thing that happened… and that can be true in cases where that person _should_ have been found guilty as well as cases where that person _should not_ have been found guilty. A prime example being the case with the kid at the park with the toy gun. Even if the cops involved were found not guilty, and even if that decision was legally correct, I believe that they could and should have acted differently. That situation could have been handled in a dozen better ways, all of which would have resulted in one fewer dead kid and two fewer (one hopes) traumatized cops. And I suspect, although I don’t know for sure, that if the kid had been white, the odds of one of those many other choices being made would have been greatly increased. Note: claiming that the cops could and should have acted differently in no way implies that the kid should not ALSO have acted differently, which is also absolutely the case. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4171 "2015-06-24T17:37:53Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > The opinion of the police chief is irrelevant. Why do you keep bringing it up? Do you think the police chief can testify that I was not in fear for my life? He can testify that no reasonable person would have been. If you have an irrational fear of guns, tough. You don’t get to shoot people because of it. > [@](#): > > It seems like this is conceptually challenging for you. Oh the fucking irony. It’s absolutely amazing how people here are criticising the shooting of people who are actual, demonstrable threats, but saying someone who threatened nobody should have been shot. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4172 "2015-06-24T17:42:31Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > He can testify that no reasonable person would have been. If you have an irrational fear of guns, tough. You don’t get to shoot people because of it. > > Oh the fucking irony. > > It’s absolutely amazing how people here are criticising the shooting of people who are actual, demonstrable threats, but saying someone who threatened nobody should have been shot. How about when the police chief testifies: > [@](#): > > “If I were in a situation where I’m in the store shopping with my family and I see an individual loading a 12 gauge, and racking it, I’m not coming to the conclusion this is good,” said Papania. “While the actions of these two men are sanctioned by state laws, what they did negatively impacted our community.” or: > [@](#): > > In our nation there continues to be violent events. Many of these tragic events start to unfold with very similar circumstances where individuals exhibit peculiar actions with firearms around large crowds,” he explained. “The actions of these two men could have inadvertently led to a very violent misunderstanding.” Does he sudenly become an unreasonable person, you utter imbecile? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4173 "2015-06-24T17:45:20Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Note: claiming that the cops could and should have acted differently in no way implies that the kid should not ALSO have acted differently, which is also absolutely the case. Man people on this board have stated the exact opposite, that his actions were not in any way wrong. That’s the problem with arguing about it here. Should the police have approached him differently? Probably. But that has absolutely nothing to do with whether the shooting was justified, and attempts to conflate the two are deliberate attempts to claim there was something wrong with the shooting despite there being no evidence for that. A lot depends on the law. If it’s an open carry state, then no action should be taken against anyone for carrying a gun (as was correctly done in the Walmart incident). If not, and someone showing a gun is illegal, then the police have a responsibility to stop the person with it at minimum risk to the public, and have the right to do so at minimum risk to themselves. The obvious solution, from a legal point of view, would be to obey your constitution and stop preventing people carrying guns - or amend the constitution to include the desired controls. Otherwise you get these continual attempts to compare events under completely different laws. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4174 "2015-06-24T17:49:03Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > How about when the police chief testifies: or: > > Does he sudenly become an unreasonable person, you utter imbecile? No, he reasonably points out that their actions were legal but stupid. If he’d said that a passer-by could have shot them for legal holding and loading a gun, then he would be unreasonable. Who was put in reasonable fear of imminent death or serious injury? Who did he point the gun at? Who did he threaten? What instructions from the police or the owner/manager of the store were ignored? You said earlier that you thought that the American people were far to scared - now you seem to be saying that scaredness is justified. Dickhead. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4175 "2015-06-24T17:57:46Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, he reasonably points out that their actions were legal but stupid. If he’d said that a passer-by could have shot them for legal holding and loading a gun, then he would be unreasonable. > > Who was put in reasonable fear of imminent death or serious injury? Who did he point the gun at? Who did he threaten? What instructions from the police or the owner/manager of the store were ignored? You said earlier that you thought that the American people were far to scared - now you seem to be saying that scaredness is justified. > > Dickhead. Stupid, racist and (probably) doughy fat is no way to go through life son. None of what you suggest has been your standard anywhere else, you hypocritical fuck. A person with a gun fearing for their life has been your standard. In this incident, people actually hid in shelter. The police chief endorsed the interpretation that their behavior was consistent with other incidents of mass shooting. Under your standards, they could be justifiably shot. Now, either I’m stating that my position has changed, and I endorse greater gun proliferation so that people in fear can start shooting… Or I’m pointing out the problematic logical conclusion of the model of greater gun proliferation AND stand your ground/fear-shooting that gun fucks endorse. Are you honestly too stupid to figure out which? Probably so, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4176 "2015-06-24T18:13:30Z")
Threats: Man with towel, man with cellphone, man running away, man handcuffed on ground, 12 year old sitting in a park (with nothing in his hands at the time of the shooting), victim of a home invasion Not threats: Man walking through Walmart while loading a shotgun. Cool, got that straight! ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4177 "2015-06-24T18:17:36Z")
Just to make sure, have I got this particular idea right? [ul] [li] Waving a peace officer down with your arm wrapped in a towel could mean a variety of things but the officer should properly assume you’re a mortal threat because they can’t see through the towel.[/li][li] Walking into a store with a shotgun, then loading and racking it should \*not \*make any reasonable person fear you’re a mortal threat.[/li][/ul] Have I got that? I almost worked the Tamir Rice thing into this list above, but I didn’t have the heart to phrase it properly. Anyone who thinks that boy was in any way culpable in his own death -and this goes for **Max** , too- is either a) thinking so abstractly about the issue as to be socially disabled about it, b)\* actually \*socially disabled, or c) severely ethically impaired I won’t argue that point, I’m just gonna declare it as my belief and move on. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4178 "2015-06-24T18:28:23Z")
Don’t forget: Threat: Boy picking up toy guy from shelf in Wal Mart. Not threat: Man loading real gun brought into Wal Mart from home. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4179 "2015-06-24T18:37:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Who was put in reasonable fear of imminent death or serious injury? Everyone in the Walmart and Win-Dixie. If you are in the vicinity of a man racking in shells to shotgun in a public place and you are afraid, that fear is entirely reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4180 "2015-06-24T18:43:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Oh the fucking irony. > > It’s absolutely amazing how people here are criticising the shooting of people who are actual, demonstrable threats, but saying someone who threatened nobody should have been shot. Are you fucking insane? :eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=208) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=210)