# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 211
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4201 "2015-06-26T14:51:17Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > How about other cases where people were shot by the police, and you seem to have no problems because the officer FELT threatened, or WAS IN FEAR for his life? > > Cases where the perpetrator was reaching for his wallet. Or running away. Or had his hand in his pocket. Or was holding a stapler. > > How do these cases fit into your worldview, eh? Is it more reasonable to shoot a person in one of these situations? Or someone walking around a crowded store with a loaded shotgun? It’s not reasonable to shoot someone who is walking round a store with a loaded gun, in an open carry state, simply for doing those things, so it can’t be _less_ reasonable to shoot anyone else. As to whether it’s equally unreasonable, or more reasonable, depends on the specific circumstances. Someone who’s been told to freeze by the police, but then gets his wallet out, that’s reasonable. Someone running away, as discussed before, depends if they were an imminent threat before they started running away. Running doesn’t automatically negate the threat, again it depends on the circumstances. If it’s the case I think you’re talking about, the claim is that he was never a threat in the first place, not that he stopped being a threat by running. Dunno about the case with the stapler, I’ve never heard of it. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4202 "2015-06-26T14:57:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > …and pointing it at people, and refusing orders to drop it, and moving aggressively when approached by officers, but what do the facts matter when there’s a Cause to be defended? Oh this is richly ironic, since you just unleashed a litany of lies in defense of your Cause. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/09/25/mass-shooting-hysteria-and-the-death-of-john-crawford/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/09/25/mass-shooting-hysteria-and-the-death-of-john-crawford/) > [@](#): > > The video is obviously disturbing, and also casts a lot of doubt on the police version of events.The police have saidthey shot Crawford only after repeated demands that he drop the rifle. The video strongly suggests that they shot him almost immediately after encountering him. The video also doesn’t show Crawford pointing the gun at anyone.Witness Ronald Ritchie tolda 911 dispatcher that Crawford was pointing the gun at children, a claim he repeated to the media. Earlier this month Ritchiechanged his story, apparently after viewing the surveillance video above. > > More importantly, the video makes clear that Crawford never pointed the gun at police, and strongly suggests they never gave him an opportunity to drop it. The video is also consistent with the story from LeeCee Johnson, the mother of Crawford’s two kids, who was on the phone with him at the time he was shot. But you’re not acting out of facts or logic. You’re stance comes from emotion: pure fear of the world (esp. Including black people) and pure idolatry of those who might save you. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4203 "2015-06-26T15:04:32Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > (esp. Including black people) Oh look let’s pretend it’s about race rather than the fact that the situations were completely different. Again. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4204 "2015-06-26T15:05:43Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > (esp. Including black people) Liar. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4205 "2015-06-26T15:20:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Liar. Take the accusation of racism. It’s better than the alternative: that you’re stupidly insane. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4206 "2015-06-26T15:22:36Z")
The idiot racking the shotgun roused enough fear (of death and/or grievous bodily injury I must suppose) that the Walmart employees secreted themselves in a ‘safe room’. Is that level of fear, a level that causes unarmed people to run and hide, sufficient to justify one of those same employees shooting the shotgun wielder in self defense, had s/he been armed? Seems to me that some stranger, bringing his shotgun and ammunition into a store for no apparent reason, walking around loading and unloading the gun, and demonstrating no other reason for his presence (like “Hey, will somebody help me with my shotgun, it seems to have a hitch in its action” or perhaps “Can somebody sell me a box of shells like these?”) is properly judged by rational human beings as imminently threatening. At least as threatening as some poor shlub pulling out his wallet or reaching for his license in front of a cop. And pre-emptively shooting him seems equally acceptable. Just sayin’… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4207 "2015-06-26T15:23:17Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > The idiot racking the shotgun roused enough fear (of death and/or grievous bodily injury I must suppose) that the Walmart employees secreted themselves in a ‘safe room’. > > Is that level of fear, a level that causes unarmed people to run and hide, sufficient to justify one of those same employees shooting the shotgun wielder in self defense, had s/he been armed? Probably. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4208 "2015-06-26T15:32:59Z")
Only probably? Are you suggesting the employee would have to wait until they shotgun was fired at them before using deadly force in reasonable self defense? That’s commie copkiller talk! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4209 "2015-06-26T15:34:05Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > The idiot racking the shotgun roused enough fear (of death and/or grievous bodily injury I must suppose) that the Walmart employees secreted themselves in a ‘safe room’. > > Is that level of fear, a level that causes unarmed people to run and hide, sufficient to justify one of those same employees shooting the shotgun wielder in self defense, had s/he been armed? No. If you’ve time to run and hide, you’re not in imminent danger. Imminence is important. Imagine this was a robbery, and he was threatening a cashier with the gun to get money. The safe room would be useless then. In this case it wasn’t, because there was no imminent threat. As it turned out, there was no threat at all, just someone obeying the law and minding his own business. Now, maybe Tamir Rice and John Crawford were doing exactly that, and whoever called the police lied about it. But, unlike in this incident, they ignored police instructions. That’s what got them shot. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4210 "2015-06-26T15:34:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Probably. Well good! Consistent, at least. Now I can’t wait for some frightened, armed citizen to shoot some show-off open carry advocate in a similar circumstance. And then for the cops to try and sort out the ensuing cluster fuck. Bets? My money is on a high body count. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4211 "2015-06-26T15:34:35Z")
By the way, “Commie Copkiller Barbie” will hit Walmart shelves in time for Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4212 "2015-06-26T15:36:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Only probably? Are you suggesting the employee would have to wait until they shotgun was fired at them before using deadly force in reasonable self defense? That’s commie copkiller talk! As they’ve explained to us before, if you even let them point the weapon at you, you’re already dead. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4213 "2015-06-26T15:40:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Only probably? Are you suggesting the employee would have to wait until they shotgun was fired at them before using deadly force in reasonable self defense? That’s commie copkiller talk! They should probably wait until there’s an imminent threat to anyone, as the law requires. Now, obviously, had someone actually shot him in those circumstances, and claimed that they were being threatened, I doubt they would be convicted. But that doesn’t excuse the encouragement here for them to do so illegally. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4214 "2015-06-26T15:41:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > …But, unlike in this incident, they ignored police instructions. That’s what got them shot. Provide evidence that Tamir Rice received any such instructions. How would that even be possible, seeing as they opened fire within two seconds of their arrival? It would have taken more than two seconds even to voice such instructions, never mind waiting to see if the instructions were complied with. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4215 "2015-06-26T15:42:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Provide evidence that Tamir Rice received any such instructions. How would that even be possible, seeing as they opened fire within two seconds of their arrival? According to my stopwatch, it takes about half a second to say “Drop the gun!” The evidence that he received such instructions is the statements from the officers involved, which have not been disputed by any other evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4216 "2015-06-26T15:45:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Ah, another fuckhead who thinks they should wait until they’ve been shot until they can defend themselves. When you know whether or not someone’s actually going to shoot you, it’s too fucking late. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18461095&postcount=4072](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18461095&postcount=4072) > [@Steophan](#): > > They should probably wait until there’s an imminent threat to anyone, as the law requires. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18470808&postcount=4213](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18470808&postcount=4213) I think that the difference is that if you’re a cop and you’re encountering a black guy and you wait, it’s too late and you’re an idiot. If you’re someone encountering a white guy racking a shotgun in Wal Mart, you _should_ wait, as the law requires. It’s crystal clear. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4217 "2015-06-26T15:47:21Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I think that the difference is that if you’re a cop and you’re encountering a black guy and you wait, it’s too late and you’re an idiot. > > If you’re someone encountering a white guy racking a shotgun in Wal Mart, you _should_ wait, as the law requires. One’s right to defend oneself from a gun-toting lunatic is not dependent on the lunatic’s race or whether or not one is a police officer. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4218 "2015-06-26T15:47:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > According to my stopwatch, it takes about half a second to say “Drop the gun!” > > The evidence that he received such instructions is the statements from the officers involved, which have not been disputed by any other evidence. Okay, so as long as they said it, they can then shoot the black kid. Gotcha. The key part is not whether there was sufficient time for the kid to actually comply, just whether there was enough time for the words to come out of their mouths. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4219 "2015-06-26T15:48:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Provide evidence that Tamir Rice received any such instructions. How would that even be possible, seeing as they opened fire within two seconds of their arrival? It would have taken more than two seconds even to voice such instructions, never mind waiting to see if the instructions were complied with. Read the police statement, or any news report on the incident. According to the police, he was told to show his hands repeatedly, and instead reached for his waistband. The video shows him doing the latter. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4220 "2015-06-26T15:48:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No. If you’ve time to run and hide, you’re not in imminent danger. No, when the gun wielder walks toward your station in women’s wear, you don’t know if you have time to run and hide. Running and hiding may keep you safe, or it may get you shot in the back. How many people have been killed or injured in exactly that way in mass shootings? By that standard, there is no imminent danger until shots are fired. And fired some arbitrary distance ‘near you’. And fired at least generally toward you. Otherwise, how can you know? Sorry, but now you’re requiring untrained and inexperienced civilians (inexperienced in armed conflicts) to perform far more cogitation and instantly evaluate far more complex better-or-worse scenario hypotheticals than you require of trained and experienced cops, for whom your standards are “might be a gun! justified shooting!”. Bullshit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=210) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=212)