# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 212
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4221 "2015-06-26T15:52:46Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I think that the difference is that if you’re a cop and you’re encountering a black guy and you wait, it’s too late and you’re an idiot. > > If you’re someone encountering a white guy racking a shotgun in Wal Mart, you _should_ wait, as the law requires. > > It’s crystal clear. You can’t tell the difference between “wait until there’s a threat” and "wait until you’ve been shot? That _is_ crystal clear. You gonna answer any of my questions about what he did wrong, and who he actually threatened, or just keep trolling and lying and disagreeing with me purely because you don’t like my attitude, not because you can actually show I’m wrong. Someone who has a gun, but is ignoring you, is not a threat. Someone who has a gun, is ignoring police instructions, and is reaching for that gun, is an imminent threat. Can you really not tell the difference? If not, I’d try not to leave the house too often, as the many and varied decisions you’d have to make, say, crossing the road might overtax you. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4222 "2015-06-26T15:54:31Z")
This “hands near the waistband” bullshit is completely fucking imbecilic. When you’re standing, your hands are near your waistband. That’s why your pants pockets are at the waistband and not the knees, you fucking moron. Anyone just standing there will have his or her hands “near their waistband.” Just shoot them all! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4223 "2015-06-26T15:55:23Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > No, when the gun wielder walks toward your station in women’s wear, you don’t know if you have time to run and hide. Running and hiding may keep you safe, or it may get you shot in the back. How many people have been killed or injured in exactly that way in mass shootings? By that standard, there is no imminent danger until shots are fired. And fired some arbitrary distance ‘near you’. And fired at least generally toward you. Otherwise, how can you know? > > Sorry, but now you’re requiring untrained and inexperienced civilians (inexperienced in armed conflicts) to perform far more cogitation and instantly evaluate far more complex better-or-worse scenario hypotheticals than you require of trained and experienced cops, for whom your standards are “might be a gun! justified shooting!”. > > Bullshit. Perhaps you could try reading my posts, rather than responding to whatever straw man you’ve constructed, because the situation you’ve described is not one that we’ve been talking about, and your suggested response to it has nothing to do with anything I’ve said. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4224 "2015-06-26T15:55:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Read the police statement, or any news report on the incident. According to the police, he was told to show his hands repeatedly, and instead reached for his waistband. The video shows him doing the latter. Quote it, you lying sack of shit. Quote it directly. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4225 "2015-06-26T15:57:37Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > This “hands near the waistband” bullshit is completely fucking imbecilic. When you’re standing, your hands are near your waistband. That’s why your pants pockets are at the waistband and not the knees, you fucking moron. > > Anyone just standing there will have his or her hands “near their waistband.” Just shoot them all! No, you’re fucking imbecilic. You suggest shooting anyone who is legally carrying a gun but not threatening anybody, but are claiming that someone who’s been told to show their hands to the cops but instead is reaching for what they have reason to believe is a gun could never be considered a threat. You’re not even trying any more, you’ve reached “argument clinic” levels of trolling. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4226 "2015-06-26T16:00:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Quote it, you lying sack of shit. Quote it directly. Quote what? Every fucking news article on the subject? Here’s one - > [@](#): > > Cleveland police say two officers told a 12-year-old boy with a pellet gun three times to show his hands before he was shot to death. Source - [http://www.rgj.com/story/news/2014/11/26/cleveland-release-video-boy-shot-officer/19529707/](http://www.rgj.com/story/news/2014/11/26/cleveland-release-video-boy-shot-officer/19529707/) Now go off and do some fucking research yourself before spouting off, you ignorant dickhead. Oh, but you won’t, you’ll just go and giggle like a fucking schoolboy with **Hentor** about your trolling. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4227 "2015-06-26T16:00:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Perhaps you could try reading my posts, rather than responding to whatever straw man you’ve constructed, because the situation you’ve described is not one that we’ve been talking about, and your suggested response to it has nothing to do with anything I’ve said. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha… It’s the “I haven’t read the thread and this is my first post in it!” defense. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4228 "2015-06-26T16:01:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You can’t tell the difference between “wait until there’s a threat” and "wait until you’ve been shot? [Quote=Steophan] **When you know whether or not** someone’s actually going to shoot you, it’s too fucking late. [/quote] Bolding added for the deceitful fuckstain. Your position was that the cop encountering a black man has to shoot _before he knows_ he will be shot. On the other hand, the people encountering the white guy racking a gun at Wal Mart have to wait until their being shot is imminent. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4229 "2015-06-26T16:02:44Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha… > > It’s the “I haven’t read the thread and this is my first post in it!” defense. :rolleyes: You know, when you quote a post it’s customary to make some reference to it in what you say. You’ve failed at this twice now… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4230 "2015-06-26T16:07:02Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > No, when the gun wielder walks toward your station in women’s wear Well, that depends; has the gun wielder properly accessorized his outfit, or is he wearing a leather miniskirt and plaid blouse, because frankly that would justify opening fire right away. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4231 "2015-06-26T16:07:35Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Bolding added for the deceitful fuckstain. > > Your position was that the cop encountering a black man has to shoot _before he knows_ he will be shot. > > On the other hand, the people encountering the white guy racking a gun at Wal Mart have to wait until their being shot is imminent. What “on the other hand”? You have to wait till there’s actually an imminent threat. That’s always been the standard I’ve been supporting. So please, for fucks sake, tell me who this guy was imminently threatening. The point is, if someone is threatening you, you don’t have to wait and see if they’re bluffing. Not that you can shoot anyone with a gun. That has clearly and consistently been the view I’ve supported, and the one backed by the police, the laws, the courts, the prosecutors, and the grand juries. So, what is your view? Should this guy have been shot? If so, then you can’t complain about any of the police shootings here. If not, then acknowledge that he did nothing wrong, and people were in no imminent fear. You clearly want it both ways, but that’s not going to happen., ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4232 "2015-06-26T16:15:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What “on the other hand”? You have to wait till there’s actually an imminent threat. That’s always been the standard I’ve been supporting. So please, for fucks sake, tell me who this guy was imminently threatening. > > The point is, if someone is threatening you, you don’t have to wait and see if they’re bluffing. Not that you can shoot anyone with a gun. That has clearly and consistently been the view I’ve supported, and the one backed by the police, the laws, the courts, the prosecutors, and the grand juries. > > So, what is your view? Should this guy have been shot? If so, then you can’t complain about any of the police shootings here. If not, then acknowledge that he did nothing wrong, and people were in no imminent fear. You clearly want it both ways, but that’s not going to happen., You’re so dumb that not only can’t you disc3rn discern on your own that I’m not calling for the shotgun guy to be shot, you can’t even understand after explicitly being told. I’m not the one who wants it two ways. I’m not the one efending stand your ground and quick draw cops. You are. Can you not even grasp the point? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4233 "2015-06-26T16:37:31Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > You’re so dumb that not only can’t you disc3rn discern on your own that I’m not calling for the shotgun guy to be shot, you can’t even understand after explicitly being told. > > I’m not the one who wants it two ways. I’m not the one efending stand your ground and quick draw cops. You are. Can you not even grasp the point? So you don’t think he should have been shot, I don’t think he should have been shot. Then why the fuck are you arguing against my every post, and lying and saying you think he was a threat to everyone there? I don’t want things both ways. I want the police - or anyone else - to be able to defend themselves and others without having to hesitate and wonder if what they’re doing is acceptable. And I want people who aren’t a threat to be left alone. Unfortunately, sometimes the police get called when they shouldn’t. But if that leads to someone ignoring police instructions and instead threatening them, I have no problem with the police defending themselves. You clearly do. You think that someone who, having been told by the police to show their hands instead reaches for a gun, is not a threat to them. You are an absolute idiot, and that alone shows your opinion is worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4234 "2015-06-26T16:42:44Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I don’t want things both ways. I want the police - or anyone else - to be able to defend themselves and others without having to hesitate and wonder if what they’re doing is acceptable. And I want people who aren’t a threat to be left alone. Unless you believe in cops with telepathic abilities, this is a perfect example of wanting things both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4235 "2015-06-26T16:47:01Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Unless you believe in cops with telepathic abilities, this is a perfect example of wanting things both ways. Nope, not even slightly. I _don’t_ expect telepathy from the cops, which is why I can accept them making understandable mistakes on occasion. It’s others who are saying that they should somehow magically know that what looks like someone reaching for a gun when told to show his hands is just a kid playing with a toy. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4236 "2015-06-26T16:56:40Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No. If you’ve time to run and hide, you’re not in imminent danger. > > Imminence is important. Imagine this was a robbery, and he was threatening a cashier with the gun to get money. The safe room would be useless then. In this case it wasn’t, because there was no imminent threat. It would seem then, that you are saying that people who are confronted with a person wielding a gun have a responsibility to run and hide if they can, before using deadly force. This would seem to be at odds with what many in the NRA community feel is required. I’ve heard that many people feel that you should be able to defend yourself with deadly force without running away. (See, for instance “stand your ground” laws.) Why would these employees in Walmart be required to run away and hide from the shotgun wielding threat, rather than simply popping a cap in his ass? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4237 "2015-06-26T17:02:38Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Why would these employees in Walmart be required to run away and hide from the shotgun wielding threat, rather than simply popping a cap in his ass? Well, presumably Walmart’s corporate policy doesn’t allow employees to pack heat while on the clock. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4238 "2015-06-26T17:02:40Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > It would seem then, that you are saying that people who are confronted with a person wielding a gun have a responsibility to run and hide if they can, before using deadly force. > > This would seem to be at odds with what many in the NRA community feel is required. I’ve heard that many people feel that you should be able to defend yourself with deadly force without running away. (See, for instance “stand your ground” laws.) > > Why would these employees in Walmart be required to run away and hide from the shotgun wielding threat, rather than simply popping a cap in his ass? You shouldn’t have to run and hide. If you choose not to, and someone becomes an imminent threat, you should be allowed to shoot them. But you can’t shoot someone who’s a potential future threat, and if you have the time to organise an evacuation and get staff to a panic room, then the threat is not imminent. If someone’s pointing a gun at you, saying get in the safe room and I won’t hurt you, you can shoot them. If someone is holding a gun minding their own business, you can’t. Is the concept of “imminent threat” really that difficult to grasp? I fully understand that in the heat of the moment people can be mistaken, but here, with all the time you like to reflect on it, people are still acting like it’s some sort of abstruse concept that no-one could possibly grasp. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4239 "2015-06-26T17:19:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I _don’t_ expect telepathy from the cops, which is why I can accept them making understandable mistakes on occasion. Where you see an “understandable mistake”, I see a twelve year old boy slaughtered while he played in the park. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4240 "2015-06-26T17:30:17Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Read the police statement, or any news report on the incident. According to the police, … \ Ah, yes. This is useful because the police would never lie: [University of Maryland police brutality case is a sobering reminder that an officer’s word can carry tremendous weight against that of an average person.](http://www.alternet.org/story/146490/%27i_didn%27t_do_anything%2C_and_i_got_my_ass_kicked%27_--_the_unfolding_police_scandal_over_videotaped_student_beating) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=211) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=213)