# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 217
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4321 "2015-06-29T11:56:42Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Next time I’m in America, if I have any sort of accident or incident, I will not call the police until there are lots of other people around, like I’m already at hospital. Due to a disability, I can’t raise my arms; I could be shot by the police if I called them about an incident and they had even the slightest fear. And Smapti and Steophan would say that was fine. Yes, I’d be hesitant to call 911 other than to report an accident/injury (anonymously). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4322 "2015-06-29T11:58:48Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I’m honestly a little disappointed that Smapti and Steophan couldn’t hold true to the values they had espoused in their previous posts, where if a cop says he would fear something and if someone has something that looks like a gun it’s a reason for fear. > > No, a man loading a gun in a Walmart, and a cop saying that was cause for fear, is apparently not a cause for fear at all! They (Steophan directly) are of the opinion that a man with a towel on his arm waving down a police car is more of a risk than a man loading a gun in a Walmart! You do realize that _at no point did police actually encounter the man in Wal-Mart while he was carrying a shotgun_, right? They arrived after the man had left, identified him via surveillance footage, tracked him down, and interviewed him later, when he was no longer armed. Or are you seriously suggesting that the police should have been in fear for their lives because he had _previously_ been holding a gun? > [@](#): > > Smapti, Steophan and Doorhinge seem to be different to most other people who are pro-gun Possibly because I’m _not_ “pro-gun”. I don’t believe the overwhelming majority of civilians have any legitimate purpose possessing a gun and I’d gladly support a massive overhaul of the Second Amendment. But because I live in a world where that’s not going to happen, I have to acknowledge that people are going to have guns who shouldn’t - and if they do, then I have the right to use a gun of my own to defend myself. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4323 "2015-06-29T12:12:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You do realize that _at no point did police actually encounter the man in Wal-Mart while he was carrying a shotgun_, right? They arrived after the man had left, identified him via surveillance footage, tracked him down, and interviewed him later, when he was no longer armed. > Or are you seriously suggesting that the police should have been in fear for their lives because he had previously been holding a gun? You do realize that at no point did the police actually encounter the Rice child carrying, let alone brandishing, a weapon, right? Or are you seriously suggesting that the police should have been in fear for their lives because he had _mistakenly thought to have_ previously been holding a gun? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4324 "2015-06-29T12:18:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You do realize that at no point did the police actually encounter the Rice child carrying, let alone brandishing, a weapon, right? Or are you seriously suggesting that the police should have been in fear for their lives because he had _mistakenly thought to have_ previously been holding a gun? So he reached for the _nothing_ in his waistband when they told him to show his hands. Interesting theory. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4325 "2015-06-29T12:41:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You do realize that at no point did the police actually encounter the Rice child carrying, let alone brandishing, a weapon, right? Or are you seriously suggesting that the police should have been in fear for their lives because he had _mistakenly thought to have_ previously been holding a gun? They were correct that he’d been previously holding a gun, and it appears in the video that he was reaching for it. They were wrong about the kind of gun it was. If only they’d had the telepathy that people keep claiming I expect them to have, it would be OK. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4326 "2015-06-29T12:49:02Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I’m honestly a little disappointed that Smapti and Steophan couldn’t hold true to the values they had espoused in their previous posts, where if a cop says he would fear something and if someone has something that looks like a gun it’s a reason for fear. > > No, a man loading a gun in a Walmart, and a cop saying that was cause for fear, is apparently not a cause for fear at all! They (Steophan directly) are of the opinion that a man with a towel on his arm waving down a police car is more of a risk than a man loading a gun in a Walmart! Perhaps you can answer the questions that everyone else seems to be avoiding, then. Who did he actually threaten? Who was in imminent danger, or could reasonably have believed themselves to be so, from him? Who’s legitimate instructions did he ignore? Unless you can answer any of those, this doesn’t compare to other cases. > [@](#): > > On other threads on this board, pro-gun people have been saying that they think what this Walmart customer did was stupid and he’s lucky he didn’t get shot. Smapti, Steophan and Doorhinge seem to be different to most other people who are pro-gun, and Steophan doesn’t even have the excuse of living in a pro-gun culture. No doubt he was stupid and lucky. Not sure what that’s got to do with how people should have responded to him. Stating that something’s not an imminent threat to somebody’s life is a long way from endorsing the behaviour. And I’d much rather live in a pro-gun culture, and trust to my lack of stupidity, than live in one where self defence is barely allowed and people get locked up for defending themselves or their families > [@](#): > > Next time I’m in America, if I have any sort of accident or incident, I will not call the police until there are lots of other people around, like I’m already at hospital. Due to a disability, I can’t raise my arms; I could be shot by the police if I called them about an incident and they had even the slightest fear. And Smapti and Steophan would say that was fine. No, you couldn’t be shot if they have the slightest fear, you could be shot if they have reasonable fear of you inflicting death or serious injury on them. But as long as you don’t threaten them with a gun _and_ ignore their instructions, you’d be fine. Your anti-cop attitude makes you part of the problem, not the solution. Try coming to live in Nottingham, and seeing how having armed police have changed the place from having the most gun crime in England to having almost none now. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4327 "2015-06-29T12:49:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So he reached for the _nothing_ in his waistband when they told him to show his hands. Interesting theory. It’s not a factual statement that they told him to “show his hands”, especially considering how quickly they shot him after arriving. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4328 "2015-06-29T12:52:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s not a factual statement that they told him to “show his hands”, especially considering how quickly they shot him after arriving. It is their testimony that they told him to show his hands. Nothing in the video contradicts that. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary their statement must be accepted as truth. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4329 "2015-06-29T12:52:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s not a factual statement that they told him to “show his hands”, especially considering how quickly they shot him after arriving. No, but it’s a factual statement that he reached towards the replica gun as the police arrived, and as yet there’s no evidence that they _didn’t_ tell him to show his hands. You know, the sort of evidence you’d need to conclude that they did something wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4330 "2015-06-29T12:54:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In the absence of any evidence to the contrary their statement must be accepted as truth. Well, I wouldn’t go that far. But believing that it’s not the truth, without any actual evidence of what did happen instead, just means you don’t know what happened, so can’t judge it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4331 "2015-06-29T13:04:09Z")
We already know that the police officers who shot Tamir Rice [lied](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice#Inconsistencies_in_police_account): > [@](#): > > 1.Police said that Rice was seated at a table with other people. The video showed that Rice was alone.[39] > 2.Police said that as they pulled up, they saw Rice grab the toy gun and put it in his waistband. This is not supported by the video.[40] Judge Adrine said the video does not show the toy gun in Rice’s hands in the moments immediately before as as the zone car approaches.[6] > 3.Police said they got out of the car and told Rice three times to put his hands up but he refused. The video shows Rice being shot before the police car even comes to a halt.[22][41] > 4.Police said that Rice then reached into his waistband and pulled out the toy gun, and was then shot and killed by Officer Timothy Loehmann. The video shows that Rice did not pull out the toy gun.[41] > 5.Police described the toy gun as looking real and later explained that the neon tip of the toy gun was missing.[7] However the police never saw Rice brandish or point the pistol at them to determine if the orange cap was actually missing or not.[7] We know that they are untruthful. Therefore, in my mind, there’s pretty good reason to believe that they didn’t say to Rice what they said they did. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4332 "2015-06-29T13:05:59Z")
So what, if anything, did they say to him? You need a lot more than “I don’t trust them” to claim they’re murderers. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4333 "2015-06-29T13:09:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So what, if anything, did they say to him? You need a lot more than “I don’t trust them” to claim they’re murderers. I’m not convinced that they’re murderers (it was just one shooter, so I’ll clarify that it’s just one potential murderer). But I think they (he) might be, and I’m hopeful the investigation is unbiased. Based on what I’ve seen and my understanding of the law, the shooter should be indicted for murder (or perhaps manslaughter) and face trial. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4334 "2015-06-29T13:14:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So what, if anything, did they say to him? You need a lot more than “I don’t trust them” to claim they’re murderers. IS the combination of the video and what **iiandyiiii** posted enough to say that the cops rolled up on Tamir, shot him and then lied about it? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4335 "2015-06-29T13:51:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not convinced that they’re murderers (it was just one shooter, so I’ll clarify that it’s just one potential murderer). But I think they (he) might be, and I’m hopeful the investigation is unbiased. Based on what I’ve seen and my understanding of the law, the shooter should be indicted for murder (or perhaps manslaughter) and face trial. They should only face trial if it’s likely they’ll be convicted, and just based on the video, I don’t think they would be - you’d need some hard evidence that they hadn’t made Rice aware of their presence, or that they couldn’t have reasonably felt that he was a threat to them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4336 "2015-06-29T13:57:21Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > They should only face trial if it’s likely they’ll be convicted, and just based on the video, I don’t think they would be - you’d need some hard evidence that they hadn’t made Rice aware of their presence, or that they couldn’t have reasonably felt that he was a threat to them. I think that the combination of the video and the officers’ lies might count as evidence that “they couldn’t have reasonably felt that he was a threat to them”. Further, I’m open to the possibility that the officer behaved in a criminally negligent fashion which may not rise to the level of murder, but should still be prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4337 "2015-06-29T13:59:48Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > IS the combination of the video and what **iiandyiiii** posted enough to say that the cops rolled up on Tamir, shot him and then lied about it? Lied? No, that assumes that they intentionally said things that weren’t true, and just from reading that there’s no way to know that. But, let’s say they are proven to have lied. So, from a legal point of view, what then? It would probably be enough to get them sacked, and it’s quite possibly a crime to falsify a police report. If you have that proof, they can be charged with that. But it doesn’t say anything about whether the shooting was legal or not. This has nothing to do with them being cops, for what it’s worth. The same has been true in other self defence cases, such as George Zimmerman, where claims that he lied were being falsely used as evidence he was a murderer. Or, even more strongly, in the Casey Anthony case (obviously not self defence) where it was actually proven that she lied, but as the prosecution couldn’t prove what actually happened, she was not guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4338 "2015-06-29T14:03:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think that the combination of the video and the officers’ lies might count as evidence that “they couldn’t have reasonably felt that he was a threat to them”. Further, I’m open to the possibility that the officer behaved in a criminally negligent fashion which may not rise to the level of murder, but should still be prosecuted. The video strongly suggests that they could reasonably have feared death, as it shows someone reaching for a gun, or at least acting in a way that looks very much like reaching for a gun. I really don’t understand how anyone could watch that, knowing that there’d been an emergency call about that person brandishing a gun, and conclude that it wasn’t possible that someone could have felt their life was threatened. I’ve no idea how their lying counteracts the video, even if we accept that they lied. Now, if you want to claim that the police were negligent or reckless in pulling up to him in the way they did, you _might_ have a case, I have no idea what the laws or procedures for that are. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4339 "2015-06-29T14:09:50Z")
I have no idea how someone who is not a psychopath could watch that video and not conclude that the officer fired well before he had any reasonable fear for his life. Further, both officers made decisions and engaged in tactics that almost guaranteed a poor outcome. Functionally, there was no difference between what they did and just driving their car into the child. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4340 "2015-06-29T14:31:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The video strongly suggests that they could reasonably have feared death, as it shows someone reaching for a gun, or at least acting in a way that looks very much like reaching for a gun. Not in my eyes, for the “reasonably feared death”. They may have feared death, but any such fear was not reasonable based on the video as I see it. > [@](#): > > I really don’t understand how anyone could watch that, knowing that there’d been an emergency call about that person brandishing a gun, and conclude that it wasn’t possible that someone could have felt their life was threatened. > > I’ve no idea how their lying counteracts the video, even if we accept that they lied. They’re lying doesn’t “counteract” the video – the video “counteracts” their claims. They shot him immediately upon arriving. That his hands may have been near his waist (and this is the best possible interpretation for the police based on the very choppy, grainy video – I’m not even sure if his hand was near his waist when he was shot) when he was shot doesn’t provide evidence of any reasonable fear for one’s life, in my view. It would have been reasonable fear for their life, perhaps, if he had been pointing the (toy) gun at the officers when they arrived. But hands near waist is not enough, in my view. > [@](#): > > Now, if you want to claim that the police were negligent or reckless in pulling up to him in the way they did, you _might_ have a case, I have no idea what the laws or procedures for that are. It seems clear to me (based on common sense and logic) that they were negligent and reckless in the way they pulled up, but I also don’t know what the laws and procedures are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=216) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=218)