# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 219
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4361 "2015-06-29T18:22:15Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You do realize that _at no point did police actually encounter the man in Wal-Mart while he was carrying a shotgun_, right? They arrived after the man had left, identified him via surveillance footage, tracked him down, and interviewed him later, when he was no longer armed. > > Or are you seriously suggesting that the police should have been in fear for their lives because he had _previously_ been holding a gun? Yes. Of course. A cop should approach someone who had previously been holding a gun as if they might be carrying a gun somewhere on their person. If he had been black, they would have approached him with guns drawn and ordered him to get on the ground so they could search him for weapons. Then they would have shot him when he moved. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4362 "2015-06-29T18:26:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Lied? No, that assumes that they intentionally said things that weren’t true, and just from reading that there’s no way to know that. > > But, let’s say they are proven to have lied. So, from a legal point of view, what then? It would probably be enough to get them sacked, and it’s quite possibly a crime to falsify a police report. If you have that proof, they can be charged with that. > > But it doesn’t say anything about whether the shooting was legal or not. This has nothing to do with them being cops, for what it’s worth. The same has been true in other self defence cases, such as George Zimmerman, where claims that he lied were being falsely used as evidence he was a murderer. Or, even more strongly, in the Casey Anthony case (obviously not self defence) where it was actually proven that she lied, but as the prosecution couldn’t prove what actually happened, she was not guilty. It goes to credibility. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4363 "2015-06-29T18:33:44Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It goes to credibility. Doesn’t matter how incredible they are if there’s no evidence against them. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4364 "2015-06-29T18:34:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’m talking about if all you have is the currently available evidence. You are speculating that there’s further evidence, and that that will show them to be guilty. This is something that happens far too often in these threads. But if you’re not sure _then they are not guilty._ Legal guilt does not require certainty. It requires the lack of reasonable doubt. The cops were shooting out of self defense right? The same self defense right that you and I share. This is probably close enough (at least WRT negligent homicide) to make it into court if the shooter was not a cop. I don’t think anyone believes the cops showed up with the intent to kill someone. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4365 "2015-06-29T18:34:57Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yes. Of course. A cop should approach someone who had previously been holding a gun as if they might be carrying a gun somewhere on their person. If he had been black, they would have approached him with guns drawn and ordered him to get on the ground so they could search him for weapons. Then they would have shot him when he moved. I’m sure they would have done if he’d reached for his gun when they approached him. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4366 "2015-06-29T18:36:00Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > My point is that any evidence that proves them guilty of murder or manslaughter will prove that they were lying, rather than that proving that they were lying is actually necessary. Otherwise you’ll be trying to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that they were mistaken but that no reasonable person could have made those mistakes. > > If that’s what you think, why _did_ they shoot him? If not because their experience and training, and the information they had, lead them to believe that he was a threat, then why? An irrational fear of young black males? Or perhaps an exaggerated fear of young black males? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4367 "2015-06-29T18:38:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, not at all. I’d certainly think they were _probably_ lying, but without proof, my opinion would be that we do not know the facts. > > I was asked for a possible, reasonable alternative, and provided one. I also said the sort of things that would be needed to prove lying. > > Occam’s Razor is not something that should be used a criminal trials. We should not convict based on what is likely or unlikely. As a juror, you are supposed to determine the facts. If you think the cops are lying, you can vote accordingly. The prosecution does not need to get moses to come down from the mountain with a stone tablet with stipulated facts. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4368 "2015-06-29T18:46:33Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > As a juror, you are supposed to determine the facts. If you think the cops are lying, you can vote accordingly. The prosecution does not need to get moses to come down from the mountain with a stone tablet with stipulated facts. Lying is not a crime they will be charged with, and I’d need hard evidence if it were to vote them guilty of it, not just a gut feeling. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4369 "2015-06-29T18:48:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > An irrational fear of young black males? Or perhaps an exaggerated fear of young black males? Ok. And your evidence for that is…? Or is it just an assumption? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4370 "2015-06-29T18:51:32Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Ok. And your evidence for that is…? Or is it just an assumption? The fact that they shot a black child and lied about the circumstances, with video footage not indicating that there was something that could have reasonably caused them to fear for their life, at least in my eyes? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4371 "2015-06-29T20:19:25Z")
The reasoning has never been clear to me - cops roll up (or smash in while serving a no-knock warrant), shout in authoritative voices with the expectation that this will shock a felon into instant compliance… but if the person happens to be innocent or was asleep or otherwise distracted by thinking about non-crime matters… “Huh, are those cops? They shouting at _me_? What the…?” _blam_, too late. Smapti says he carries a gun, and that it only takes a second to drop a gun, so can we assume that if he hears at any time: “POLICE, DROP THE GUN!” his gun would be on the ground in one second? Because if not, then he’s a big fat liar. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4372 "2015-06-30T08:05:11Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You two fuckwits need to do a _lot_ of research on how memory works, especially in traumatic situations, before you can say things like that. When “false memories” are so self-serving, and so pervasive, and so clearly contradicted by the physical evidence, I’ll say take your research and shove it up your cactus hole, it’s pretty clear they’re just liars, to anyone except a cop-rimmer like yourself. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4373 "2015-06-30T08:23:38Z")
False memories? What a new low. Next up, I was possessed by an evil spirit! ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4374 "2015-06-30T08:29:09Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Smapti says he carries a gun, and that it only takes a second to drop a gun, so can we assume that if he hears at any time: “POLICE, DROP THE GUN!” his gun would be on the ground in one second? > > Because if not, then he’s a big fat liar. Here is the crazy thing, when you instinctively reach for the gun in the holster to throw it to the ground now you have it in your hand… BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM EDIT:I think Smapti operates from a version of the just world fallacy, in that he believes if someone has a bad encounter with police they must have done something wrong, and he can avoid such a bad encounter by doing everything right. Thus his obsession with dissecting every case posted here for some fault to find on the part of the victim. If he can find even one small fault, then the blame is on them entirely and all police action was justified. I assume one day, assuming he has a negative encounter with police, his worldview will be shattered after he did everything right and he might learn something. Or maybe he just comes to the idea he did something wrong and he was at fault. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4375 "2015-06-30T09:15:02Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > When “false memories” are so self-serving, and so pervasive, and so clearly contradicted by the physical evidence, I’ll say take your research and shove it up your cactus hole, it’s pretty clear they’re just liars, to anyone except a cop-rimmer like yourself. I’m sure that if the prosecution take your approach at trial, they’ll be guaranteed a conviction. Of course I don’t actually believe it was false memories, I think it’s quite likely the cops were lying. But, since we have a video that shows it was a justified shooting, _it doesn’t matter_. Maybe if you can actually prove they were lying, rather than just say they must be because it would benefit them, they can be convicted of lying on a police report (assuming that is a crime). Would that satisfy you? After all, it’s the only crime that appears to have actually been committed. Or are you ignoring justice and law, and just out for revenge because someone was killed? ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4376 "2015-06-30T09:43:15Z")
If the cops told him to drop the gun and it was in his waistband, he was trying to comply. This kid stood no chance once those cops had it in their head that there was a black man with a gun. I don’t think the cops set out to kill anyone, but they were most certainly negligent and it cost a child his life. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4377 "2015-06-30T09:57:53Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > since we have a video that shows it was a justified shooting The fuck we do. > [@](#): > > Or are you ignoring justice and law, and just out for revenge because someone was killed? No, justice and the rule of law is precisely what I’m out for. Not the cop-fellating perversion of it you advocate for. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4378 "2015-06-30T10:46:14Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > If the cops told him to drop the gun and it was in his waistband, he was trying to comply. Who’s claimed that the cops said that? If they have, that would change things significantly, but I’ve not seen that. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4379 "2015-06-30T10:47:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The fuck we do. > No, justice and the rule of law is precisely what I’m out for. Not the cop-fellating perversion of it you advocate for. So you’d vote not guilty at a trial then? If you believed in law or justice, you’d be compelled to, based on the evidence available. Otherwise, it’s clear that you’ve assumed that the killing was wrong, and worked backwards from there - the exact opposite of a just approach. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4380 "2015-06-30T11:09:40Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Who’s claimed that the cops said that? If they have, that would change things significantly, but I’ve not seen that. You know, you’re right, I may have mixed up what the officer claimed he told him to do. I still believe the officers were both too quick to act and negligent in how they handled this, but after reading some more on this case, I think some of the fault here may be with how the information was relayed to the officers by the dispatcher. Apparently they weren’t told it was _probably_ a youth and _probably_ a toy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=218) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=220)