# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 224
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4461 "2015-07-01T10:00:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So it’s not justice you want, just the _appearance_ of justice. If you miss targets as easily as you miss points, you should not have a gun. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4462 "2015-07-01T12:47:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So, go solely by the video. Which does not show, beyond reasonable doubt, that they unlawfully killed Rice. The cops roll up to point blank range. The shooter draws his weapon as he is exiting the vehicle. Based on their positioning and actions, the officers seem intent on shooting the kid from before they enter stage right. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4463 "2015-07-01T13:03:01Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > No. I just want the appearance of justice, which is missing in your scenario. The appearance of justice is not served by taking people to court when there’s no likelihood of conviction. That is using the law to harass innocent people to get revenge. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4464 "2015-07-01T13:04:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Let me be more specific - they didn’t get out, warn him, then shoot, like they said, as the video _clearly_ shows Tamir dropping before anyone’s even out of the car. Yes. So what? It also shows the shooter running to hide behind the car, not something he would have done were he not in fear of being shot. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4465 "2015-07-01T13:10:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t get, if the right if self-defense is so absolute, why the cops _shouldn’t_ shoot everybody on the scene as soon as they arrive, just in case. That’s basically Steophan’s and Smapti’s argument, reinforced every time one of them says that our questioning the actions of the police implies we believe they have no right (or a reduced right) to self defense. Because, as has been stated countless times, they need to be in reasonable fear of imminent danger. Someone standing minding their own business does not, absent further information, provide that. Someone facing the police and reaching for a gun definitely does. In between those, there are many grey areas. But when you’re in one of those grey areas, when you have a video that’s consistent with someone reaching for a gun but doesn’t prove it, you don’t get to use that video as proof of guilt. It’s almost like you’re intentionally ignoring or misunderstanding this argument. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4466 "2015-07-01T13:20:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Because, as has been stated countless times, they need to be in reasonable fear of imminent danger. Someone standing minding their own business does not, absent further information, provide that. Someone facing the police and reaching for a gun definitely does. > > In between those, there are many grey areas. But when you’re in one of those grey areas, when you have a video that’s consistent with someone reaching for a gun but doesn’t prove it, you don’t get to use that video as proof of guilt. > > It’s almost like you’re intentionally ignoring or misunderstanding this argument. According to Judge Adrine, there is sufficient evidence to charge the shooter with multiple crimes (including murder, negligent homicide, and more). Looking at everything available (the video plus statements by the shooter) the only evidence that Rice was reaching for his gun comes from the assertions by the shooter. Since we know that the shooter made false statements about multiple aspects of the shooting, and since the video doesn’t show any gun-reaching at all, I think that the shooter’s assertions are not credible. Thus, I agree with Judge Adrine. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4467 "2015-07-01T13:35:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The appearance of justice is not served by taking people to court when there’s no likelihood of conviction. The prosecutor cannot reach that conclusion when he is biased by a conflict of interest. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4468 "2015-07-01T14:13:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Perhaps you can answer the questions that everyone else seems to be avoiding, then. Who did he actually threaten? Who was in imminent danger, or could reasonably have believed themselves to be so, from him? Who’s legitimate instructions did he ignore? Unless you can answer any of those, this doesn’t compare to other cases. The staff, who locked themselves in a saferoom, and the customers, who were evacuated. > [@](#): > > No, you couldn’t be shot if they have the slightest fear, you could be shot if they have reasonable fear of you inflicting death or serious injury on them. But as long as you don’t threaten them with a gun _and_ ignore their instructions, you’d be fine. > > Your anti-cop attitude makes you part of the problem, not the solution. Try coming to live in Nottingham, and seeing how having armed police have changed the place from having the most gun crime in England to having almost none now. No, if they _think_ I have a gun, they could order me to raise my hands, and, like you seem to have missed me saying, I can’t do that. This is hardly impossible, is it, given the number of cases in this thread alone? It would behoove me to be very wary of going near the police. Police in Nottingham aren’t routinely armed. And I live in inner East London (Bethnal Green/Hackney borders, on what is called the Murder Mile) so wow, I’m so impressed by your big city hardman talk. I mean, seriously dude, that is funny. I also am not anti-cop, just anti bad cops. There seem to be too many of them at present. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4469 "2015-07-01T14:26:49Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Because, as has been stated countless times, they need to be in reasonable fear of imminent danger. Someone standing minding their own business does not, absent further information, provide that. Someone facing the police and reaching for a gun definitely does. > > In between those, there are many grey areas. But when you’re in one of those grey areas, when you have a video that’s consistent with someone reaching for a gun but doesn’t prove it, you don’t get to use that video as proof of guilt. > > It’s almost like you’re intentionally ignoring or misunderstanding this argument. What I’ve described is the natural result of your argument, reinforced every time you and your buddy Smapti act all indignant and start accusing opponents of wanting to see cops die. And the video isn’t clear about this alleged reach. A generous interpretation of events is that the cops CREATED the dangerous situation where none existed and had decided, consciously or not, to be hair-trigger sensitive to any perceived hostile movement. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4470 "2015-07-01T14:35:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What I’ve described is the natural result of your argument, reinforced every time you and your buddy Smapti act all indignant and start accusing opponents of wanting to see cops die. No, it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4471 "2015-07-01T14:40:39Z")
So the DOJ has determined that while the shooting in Ferguson might have been justified (and it probably was). The Police response to the demonstrations was not justified. > **[DOJ Report Faults Police Response to Ferguson Protest](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/doj-report-faults-police-response-ferguson-protest-n384561)** > > Police responding to protests last year in Ferguson, Missouri used tactics that increased tensions between cops and protesters, according to the DOJ. This leads me to believe that while Brown might have been lawfully shot, the response to the shooting was the result of a long history of police abuse of local residents. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4472 "2015-07-01T14:41:18Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > The staff, who locked themselves in a saferoom, and the customers, who were evacuated. Imminent. Look it up, since you clearly don’t know what it means. > [@](#): > > No, if they _think_ I have a gun, they could order me to raise my hands, and, like you seem to have missed me saying, I can’t do that. This is hardly impossible, is it, given the number of cases in this thread alone? It would behoove me to be very wary of going near the police. As I said, if that makes you wary of going near the police, then you and your idiotic paranoia are part of the problem > [@](#): > > Police in Nottingham aren’t routinely armed. Not all of them, there are routinely some armed police around. Have been for at least 15 years. > [@](#): > > And I live in inner East London (Bethnal Green/Hackney borders, on what is called the Murder Mile) so wow, I’m so impressed by your big city hardman talk. I mean, seriously dude, that is funny. How many times have you had to stay in your house because there was an armed siege on your road? I’ve had to. Fortunately, the competent, armed, police dealt with it relatively quickly. And non-violently, as far as I can tell. > [@](#): > > I also am not anti-cop, just anti bad cops. There seem to be too many of them at present. _Everybody_ is anti-bad-cop, except some of the bad cops. The problem is you are assuming that all of them are bad. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4473 "2015-07-01T14:48:08Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The prosecutor cannot reach that conclusion when he is biased by a conflict of interest. Not only can he reach it, but if the evidence is not strong enough to show a likelihood of success he must reach it. He can’t attempt to prosecute the case despite a lack of evidence just to prove to you that he’s not biased, that would be a breach of the defendant’s rights, and a breach of his duty to the public. You seem to want a trial no matter what. Which is disturbing, frankly. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4474 "2015-07-01T14:50:05Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So the DOJ has determined that while the shooting in Ferguson might have been justified (and it probably was). The Police response to the demonstrations was not justified. > > [DOJ Report Faults Police Response to Ferguson Protest](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/doj-report-faults-police-response-ferguson-protest-n384561) > > This leads me to believe that while Brown might have been lawfully shot, the response to the shooting was the result of a long history of police abuse of local residents. Those horrible policemen, protecting the law abiding residents of Ferguson from looters, vandals, and arsonists. With _dogs_, the horror! ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4475 "2015-07-01T14:58:33Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Those horrible policemen, protecting the law abiding residents of Ferguson from looters, vandals, and arsonists. With _dogs_, the horror! The cops literally never do anything wrong in Steophan’s eyes. This is why he gets called a fascist and sycophantic cop-slobber. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4476 "2015-07-01T15:16:10Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > This leads me to believe that while Brown might have been lawfully shot, the response to the shooting was the result of a long history of police abuse of local residents. Shame on those police for enforcing the law with appropriate force. Next thing you know they’re going to start writing speeding tickets! Clearly, they should have just stood there with their hands behind their backs and politely asked the criminal mobs burning down the city around them to please not set fires and steal things. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4477 "2015-07-01T15:26:34Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > The staff, who locked themselves in a saferoom, and the customers, who were evacuated. (post shortened) Who ordered the staff into the safe room? The store manager? The police? The shotgun toter? At what point in time were they ordered into the safe room? After the shotgun toter had left the store? Before the shotgun toter had left the store? Who ordered the evacuation of the customers? SWAT? They didn’t arrive until after the shotgun toter had left the store. Was it the store manager? Why did the shotgun toter rack the shotgun? Did the shotgun toter actually rack the shotgun? Did someone ask the shotgun toter, “Is that thing loaded”, and the shotgun toter responded by opening the breech to show them it wasn’t loaded? So many questions, so few answers. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4478 "2015-07-01T15:39:20Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So the DOJ has determined that while the shooting in Ferguson might have been justified (and it probably was). The Police response to the demonstrations was not justified. > > [DOJ Report Faults Police Response to Ferguson Protest](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/doj-report-faults-police-response-ferguson-protest-n384561) > > This leads me to believe that while Brown might have been lawfully shot, the response to the shooting was the result of a long history of police abuse of local residents. According to your linked article: \*The report, which has not yet been issued, says the use of dogs, snipers, and tactical vehicles designed for the military “served to escalate rather than de-escalate the overall situation,” NBC News has learned. The office “will release the final after-action assessment in the coming weeks, which will convey the findings and lessons learned, following review by the agencies that are involved,” said a Justice Department spokesman, who declined further comment on the initial findings.\* According to Pete Williams of NBC News, an unnamed source leaked unofficial information about a pending DOJ report. It doesn’t get any better than that. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4479 "2015-07-01T15:51:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, it isn’t. Your posts are my cite. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4480 "2015-07-01T15:58:59Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes. So what? So they lied. > [@](#): > > It also shows the shooter running to hide behind the car Yes, possibly, or he’s just trying to put the car between himself and the results of his actions - it looks more like he’s leaning on it at one point. Probably trying to hold down his gorge. As some asshole once said - ‘So what?’ That’s _after_ Tamir’s shot (and _at the same time_ as his companion is poking the prone Tamir with his boot, I might add, so clearly _one_ of them was in no fear) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=223) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=225)