# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 225
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4481 "2015-07-01T16:03:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Lying is not a crime they will be charged with, and I’d need hard evidence if it were to vote them guilty of it, not just a gut feeling. You are not required to take everything said in the witness box as fact. If you find the notion that all these exonerating false statements were simply false memory as ridiculously improbable compared to the notion that they were simply lying, then you can vote accordingly. Witnesses give contradicting testimony all the time. Juries are often called on to tell us which version of the facts are true. Some people reflexively assume that the cops are telling the truth and everyone else is lying. Others see an explanation like false memory to reconcile inconsistency between what the cops said and what the video clearly shows he did and say “bullshit, this guy is lying” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4482 "2015-07-01T16:04:37Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Doesn’t matter how incredible they are if there’s no evidence against them. You know there is a video right? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4483 "2015-07-01T16:07:46Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Ok. And your evidence for that is…? Or is it just an assumption? The fact that cops shoot young black males disproportionatley compared to any other demographic group. There is a LOT of evidence that cops discriminate against young black males. do you really need a cite to the evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4484 "2015-07-01T16:15:13Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So find that they are lying, and ignore their statements when evaluating the evidence. But that’s all you get to do, you don’t get to assume any other facts apart from that they were lying. > > So, go solely by the video. Which does not show, beyond reasonable doubt, that they unlawfully killed Rice. Reasonable doubt is in the hands of a jury. I don’t think they could get convicted of murder 1 or 2 but they can certainly be convicted of negligent homicide. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4485 "2015-07-01T16:18:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There is a LOT of evidence that cops discriminate against young black males. do you really need a cite to the evidence? Police tend to discriminate against criminals regardless of their skin color. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4486 "2015-07-01T16:20:19Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Legally, you still have to convince a jury that the argument for guilt boils down to “he shot a kid, and lied about what happened, therefore he’s guilty”. The lie doesn’t mean he is guilty. It means we can discount anything he has to say, not ignore, but discount. We can look at the video without the addition of the narrative that the cop wants to superimpose on the video. If the video looks damning we can damn him. A lot of people think the video looks damning. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4487 "2015-07-01T16:32:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Police tend to discriminate against criminals regardless of their skin color. That’s funny, when [Philip Seidle shot and killed his wife in front of their daughter](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/06/16/officer-shooting-ex-wife/28819983/), then walked around with the gun in his hand, police acted calm and courteous. He wasn’t shot. Even after he reloaded and shot her again. Police eventually asked nicely and he handed over his gun. Then they hugged him. Tamir Rice was black. Philip Seidle wore blue. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4488 "2015-07-01T16:40:49Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > That’s funny, when [Philip Seidle shot and killed his wife in front of their daughter](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/06/16/officer-shooting-ex-wife/28819983/), then walked around with the gun in his hand, police acted calm and courteous. He wasn’t shot. Even after he reloaded and shot her again. > > Police eventually asked nicely and he handed over his gun. Then they hugged him. What do you know - following instructions and handing over your gun _does_ work out better than fighting, trying to draw on the cops, or running away! I guess you must be upset that the police didn’t kill him in order to preserve some standard of fairness. I mean, it’s not like he was _human_ or anything - just a cop. Cops’ lives don’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4489 "2015-07-01T16:47:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Police tend to discriminate against criminals regardless of their skin color. For much of American history, many or even most police officers and police departments were the active enemies of peaceful black people. Many statistics and reports (and, most importantly, the reports of black Americans) indicate that this still exists to a lesser but still significant degree in some places in America. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4490 "2015-07-01T16:49:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You _still_ have it backwards, and I don’t know why you have so much trouble accepting it. The video doesn’t prove he was not a threat. So, it can’t be used to convict them. That’s it, that’s all that matters. That is not how self defense usually works. Self defense is usually an affirmative defense. If you kill someone, you have to prove that you were acting in self defense. You may be confused by the Treyvon Martin case in Florida where it is NOT an affirmative defense (which seems retarded to me). I don’t know what the rule is in this particular jurisdiction but the general rule is that self defense needs to be proved. it is not assumed. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4491 "2015-07-01T16:52:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > For much of American history, many or even most police officers and police departments were the active enemies of peaceful black people. A man who robs a convenience store and punches a cop in the face is not “peaceful”. A man selling contraband in broad daylight and getting physical when confronted about it is not being “peaceful”. A man brandishing a firearm in a public park and reaching for it when the cops show up is not being “peaceful”. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4492 "2015-07-01T16:55:40Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’ll try once more. Do you think the video proves beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not reaching for the gun when he was shot? Do you have a cite that says that you are applying the correct standards? because I don’t think you are. [http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2901.05](http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2901.05) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4493 "2015-07-01T16:58:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Those horrible policemen, protecting the law abiding residents of Ferguson from looters, vandals, and arsonists. With _dogs_, the horror! Is there anything short of a confession that would convince you that the cops did anything wrong? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4494 "2015-07-01T16:58:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What do you know - following instructions and handing over your gun _does_ work out better than fighting, trying to draw on the cops, or running away! No, he did not comply initially, in fact he fired more shots through the windshield! He then walked around with the gun, pointing it at his head. Compare the time from initial confrontation to resolution between this case and Tamir Rice’s case. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4495 "2015-07-01T17:01:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Police tend to discriminate against criminals regardless of their skin color. Yes. And there are studies on this that show that similarly situated young black men get shot or killed much more frequently than young white men or young Asian men. What is it about young black criminals that warrants shooting so much more frequently than young white men? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4496 "2015-07-01T17:04:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What do you know - following instructions and handing over your gun _does_ work out better than fighting, trying to draw on the cops, or running away! > > I guess you must be upset that the police didn’t kill him in order to preserve some standard of fairness. I mean, it’s not like he was _human_ or anything - just a cop. Cops’ lives don’t matter. "Once Philip Seidle stopped shooting, he put his gun to his head and started walking around her vehicle, police said. Officers, who were nearby investigating an unrelated motor-vehicle accident, started talking to him and got him to allow them to take his daughter out of his SUV. As she was taken away, Philip Seidle then walked to the front of his wife’s car and fired into the windshield." So police were on the scene when he fired a gun and they STILL didn’t shoot him. Or was shooting his wife part of the police instructions? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4497 "2015-07-01T17:05:15Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > No, he did not comply initially, in fact he fired more shots through the windshield! He then walked around with the gun, pointing it at his head. Compare the time from initial confrontation to resolution between this case and Tamir Rice’s case. So you admit that he was only a threat to himself and not to the other officers. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So police were on the scene when he fired a gun and they STILL didn’t shoot him. Or was shooting his wife part of the police instructions? Your quoted text says that he fired “into the windshield”, not that he shot his wife. His wife was already dead by then. It is not possible to threaten a corpse. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What is it about young black criminals that warrants shooting so much more frequently than young white men? Nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4498 "2015-07-01T17:06:32Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > No, he did not comply initially, in fact he fired more shots through the windshield! He then walked around with the gun, pointing it at his head. Compare the time from initial confrontation to resolution between this case and Tamir Rice’s case. To be fair, Tamir Rice didn’t actually have a gun in his hand. I mean for fuck’s sake, you don’t have to wait until they actually shoot at you but they should at least be touching the goddam gun when you shoot them. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4499 "2015-07-01T17:09:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So you admit that he was only a threat to himself and not to the other officers. So, a white man reshooting his murder victim, through the windshield = no threat. A black kid standing there for 2 seconds, dazed as the cop car races up next to him = threat. Smapti is absolutely beyond any sort of redemption. That is simply crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4500 "2015-07-01T17:09:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So you admit that he was only a threat to himself and not to the other officers. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?!?!?!! He discharged a weapon while the cops were around, that immediately makes him a threat. Do you think that a black man who just killed his wife could survive an encounter where he shot at his wife’s corpse in the presence of police officers? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=224) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=226)